Native american indians?

[Legolas]

Prior to the last century of the Second Age with the sinking of Númenor, my understanding is that the Americas would have been the far-far east in relation to northwestern Middle-earth (where most of the stories take place). Valinor, Tol Eressëa, and Númenor (later called Atalantë by elves) were the only lands west of Middle-earth, and prior to the Third Age the former two had been removed while the latter was destroyed (al a Atlantis).

It wasn't until then that the world was made round. Thus, any lands discovered by men sailing west from Middle-earth after the Downfall of Númenor would have already present in the far east, just now wrapped around. This falls in line with Tolkien's plan for his Arda to be an Elvish account of the early days of our own earth.

The Avalon link is there as well, as the chief dwelling area of Tol Eressëa was named Avallónë. It was the immortality of Valinor that the Numenoreans sought, just as men hailed the healing and restoration of Avalon in the Arthurian legends.

After its removal, men would eventually find something very different off to their west: what had always been the farthest east, in the opposite direction of their initial migration, a land much more undeveloped in terms of their ideas of civilization.

Native Americans would've had their place in Tolkien's timeline, only he didn't (and probably never would) fill in the gaps between the beginning of the Fourth Age and the present. He reckoned we might now be at the start of the Seventh Age (and that ages had gotten shorter since), so I would guess that the discovery of the Americas would have fallen in the Fifth Age or Sixth Age, or perhaps would've been the significant event heralding the transition from Fifth to Sixth. He always chose significant events to prepare Age changes, such as the destruction of Beleriand and defeat of Morgoth (towards end of First), the destruction of Numenor (towards end of Second), and the final defeat of Sauron and the dominion of Man (end of Third).

[alatar]

As Legolas' ME geography indicates, even in Arda the aboriginal Americans might be mistaken for 'Indians' after the Fall of Numenor.

[Ulvenok]

There are various made-up races in fantasy and science fiction that are generally assumed to be based on actual peoples. But this is because they have specific, obvious points of cultural similarity. "Lived in harmony with nature" is much too vague to cut it.

I was thinking more of it's geographical location in the world and how it relates to our world. But then again maybe that continent after Valinor was meant to be america in Tolkien's mind. In either case it's fun to speculate, I wonder if the other locations in middle earth stand in some relation to our world map. Then Mordor would be around Israel wouldn't it!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Then Mordor would be around Israel wouldn't it!

But then Gondor would be under the waves, wouldn't it?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I was thinking more of it's geographical location in the world and how it relates to our world. But then again maybe that continent after Valinor was meant to be america in Tolkien's mind. In either case it's fun to speculate, I wonder if the other locations in middle earth stand in some relation to our world map. Then Mordor would be around Israel wouldn't it!

Mordor is directly east of Gondor, so your supposition is wrong. Map from Encyclopedia of Arda

It helps if you read the texts closely or check out the maps Tolkien drew.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I was thinking more of it's geographical location in the world and how it relates to our world. But then again maybe that continent after Valinor was meant to be america in Tolkien's mind. In either case it's fun to speculate, I wonder if the other locations in middle earth stand in some relation to our world map. Then Mordor would be around Israel wouldn't it!

It is not a matter for speculation, it has nothing to do with America at all. You have to understand the specific mythological references Tolkien uses. Avallonë (Avalon) and Atalantë (Atlantis) have precedence in real world legend and myth.

Atlantis (Island of Atlas) as referred to by Plato was a separate island continent thought to be located (by later cartographers) in the Atlantic Ocean west of Spain and Africa and east of the Americas. Like Tolkien's Numenor, Atlantis sank beneath the sea in a giant cataclysm.

Avalon (Ynys Afallon/Afallach/Aballac in Welsh), The Isle of the Apple, derived from the Old Irish Emain Ablach), is part of ancient Welsh, Cornish, Breton and Briton myth, and is the land where the wounded King Arthur sailed after his fateful battle with Mordred. It is sometimes related to Glastonbury, and is also cognizant with Tir Na Nog of the Irish, the Fortunate Isle, the Isle of the Young, etc. It is, in essence, what Tolkien would refer to as "Faery", the netherworld.

The Americas were a different land mass altogether and not referred to by Tolkien. Such a land mass most likely did not come about until after Eru reshaped the world during the destruction of Numenor.

[Ulvenok]

I think you're right Morthoron.

[alatar]

I think that Ulvenok's right about Morthoron being right.

[Nice summary Morth!]

[alatar]

And Ulvenok, what do you think about the south american natives? I always saw the Mayans (due to the human sacrificing) as Black Númenóreans that set up shop elsewhere before Sauron's pseudo-drowning.