Unknown beings!?

[Morsul the Dark]

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

[Ulvenok]

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

I also wonder what Gandalf said to Tom before he left for the undying lands. Whatever he said would most likely reveal Tom's real identity and status in relation to Gandalf. Then we have the dream that Frodo had when he sailed for Valinor, that reminded him of how he felt when sleeping at Bombadil's house. This also is a sign of Bombadil's divine status in the world. Anyway I still have a small recollection of there being some phrase speaking of "other" spirits that eru sent into arda unlike the valar and maiar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Bombadil was expressly said to have no power over the Ring, which was the same as saying he had no power over Sauron. It was said at the Council that Sauron could not be defied by Bombadil alone. "Would not" was a consideration, though Gandalf indeed thought Tom would take the Ring if he was begged to do so. , but could not is the more important point.
The Ring had no power over Tom because he had no inherent desire for power he did not possess already; he was satisfied with his state of affairs. Gandalf said Bombadil was "his own master", which to me is simply a statement that Tom's purpose in Arda was unique, not necessarily a measure of his inherent power.
That of course is conjectural, but so is a great deal of discussion on Tom.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

That's all I was saying. Tom and Ungoliant seem to be similar in that both are obviously beings with great spiritual power, each having motives and purposes that appear to have been their own. Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar and Maia would seem to fill the bill.

[Ulvenok]

Bombadil was expressly said to have no power over the Ring, which was the same as saying he had no power over Sauron.

Note that the ring had no power over him either, so by that sort of reasoning Sauron would have no power over Tom either. However as important as Gandalf's words are on Tom, they are clearly different and Tom making the ring dissapear completely makes it seem even though Gandalf says otherwise, Tom had some sort of influence over the ring.

It was said at the Council that Sauron could not be defied by Bombadil alone.

His reason for not "being able" to take on Sauron alone does not have to be because he has not the ability to do so. He won't leave his old forest either, doesn't mean that he cannot. Also they say Tom wouldn't understand the importance of the ring, one could draw parallels between this phrase and Manwe's unability to understand evil. Any ordinary maia would understand the importance of the ring and also be influenced by it. Tom seems to be a more abstract entity more like the great powers than any other maia we know of.

but could not is the more important point.

Maybe the reason he could not is the same reason why Oromë "could not" ride into mordor and take care of Sauron.

The Ring had no power over Tom because he had no inherent desire for power he did not possess already; he was satisfied with his state of affairs. Gandalf said Bombadil was "his own master", which to me is simply a statement that Tom's purpose in Arda was unique, not necessarily a measure of his inherent power.

Why use the word "master" then.

Noun

A man who has people working for him, esp. servants or slaves.
A ship or boat with a specified number of masts: "a three-master".

Adjective
Having or showing very great skill or proficiency.
Verb
Acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).

Since none is working for Tom, Gandalf's use of master can't be a noun in which case it's an adjective which seems to suggest that it indeed was a statement made on his inherent power, also Goldberry saying that "he is" also has to be taken into account maybe more so than what Gandalf said. Purpose really never plays into it in my opinion, he seems to have little purpose if any at all.

That's all I was saying. Tom and Ungoliant seem to be similar in that both are obviously beings with great spiritual power, each having motives and purposes that appear to have been their own. Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar and Maia would seem to fill the bill.

The ainur were both maia and vala. What I'm arguing for is that both have shown feats of "spiritual power" that exceeds any other maia we've heard of in the books therefore have to be more vala than maia. However the valar are specifically those who entered arda, there are none else which means labeling Tom and Ungoliant is tricky.

I still recall reading at some point Eru sending "other" spirits into arda before the valar or at the same time as them that are not accounted for. I don't think it's the quote that you gave me. I read it somewhere at some point but I can't remember.

[Lalwendë]

See, this is precisely why I love Tom and Ungoliant so much. They can't be pinned down and assigned a 'place' like most other Tolkien characters, and I also think this is why he left them as he did. He does it 'cause it teases us....

I can also find something new each time I read about them.

If we take it that Eru is omnipotent then he must have created Tom and Ungoliant as much as he created the Valar, or at the very least have created the Valar who created them, if you are of the belief that they are like Dwarves or Ents, a subcreation. One thing I always find interesting about Eru is that alongside making all the beautiful and 'good' things, he also creates Melkor and Ungoliant, and being omnipotent and all-knowing, he knows what they are about. Both Tom and Ungoliant seem to have entered Arda before the Valar did, Tom as he states that he is oldest, and Ungoliant because of this:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

No clue as to whether she is 'lesser' than Melkor, but he is able to make her his servant, and she is able to refuse to be his servant. She isn't even a spider - as she "took shape of a spider".

Incidentally, the following quote may explain some of the more unusual beings in Middle-earth:

the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Elf_NFB

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

What color are Cthulhu's boots?

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by blantyr

What color are Cthulhu's boots?

What else? A Colour (sic) Out Of Space.

[R.]

I personally believe Ungiliant is just a powerful Maiar it is said that some Maiar where near as powerful as Valar, But Tom is a different matter all together he's ust a mystery.

[Avanti]

strange

he didn't mention them

because

they do exist

i have met them

numerous times