Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

No she was banned for her part in being one of the leaders in the rebellion. Tolkien later on was considering changing her significant role in leading the Noldor, but she was always going to under ban for disobeying the Noldor.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

It is stated that Galadriel

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

No, but she was considering stealing it from Frodo if he passed through her land.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

No she was unsure of what she would do until the moment itself happened.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.

It matters in the manner. Leaving in toe with a mad man, who had broken the Valars laws and sworn a destructive oath was there choice. They then doubled their misery by committing murder before they went.

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

The whole world is under Manwe. As Mandos said you cannot escape his kingship. Tolkien outright states they were corrupted by Morgoth and repeated his lies. They may have loved the Valr, but they broke their laws and had to make their own bed.

Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman.

[elbenprincess]

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

"But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien."

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents. ... This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, know to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë

I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she

felt confined in the tutelage of Aman

but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.

If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

It's because Gandalf cared about everything good in ME and wanted to save it all, not just one place as he tells Denethor. It was not only down to duty, but love as well.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

Yes she was joking about it, but at the same time it was something she had considered.

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

The Sindar were safe in Doriath for a while and Men had rejected Eru; a worse crime than the Noldor had committed.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning. Many of them regretted leaving their great works behind. It was due to pride and arrogance. They wanted to be the greatest people around, rather than the lowest as they were in Valinor.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand. If they wanted to show what they could do against Morogth they got what they wanted. If they wanted realms of their own without the power of the Valar they got it. They all died except Galadriel and all of their realms were destroyed. That's what they got without the Valar.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Yes and this is why they were punished. They not only left at an evil time, but under a banned leader and the majority committed even great crimes.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor. That reasoning is how Morgoth came about. The Noldor did not except Manwe as ruler of the world. That apart they insulted the Valar in their own homes.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Yes it does. They may have followed Fingolfin, but urged on by Feanor and due to the lies of Morgoth.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy. Similar to when the Numenoreans started returning to ME and conquering lands. It was the first sign that they were beginning to fall.
[QUOTE]
I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.
[QUOTE]
Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing.

I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return.

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

Those are the same words that that Morgoth used. Pride always leads to a fall. The ones, who are humble always end up better. Finarfin faired better than his brothers, Tuor faired better than Turin, Aragorn faired better than Isildur, Faramir better than Boromir.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything.

[elbenprincess]

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament

wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;

or

"I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home."

That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Men had rejected Eru

How that? I should read the Silm again

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëonor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration."

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament or That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

It is due to the fault in her. Only after she rejects the Ring is her ban lifted. It's only then that she has realised why she was wrong and repented.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

How that? I should read the Silm again

It goes into deeper depth about this in Morgoth's ring. Men are not innocents abandoned by the Valar and corrupted by Morgoth. They had the fortune of Eru himself speaking to them, but they chose Morgoth.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

Thingol was not happy with it and they did not respect him as the High King. The sons of Feanor even called him erroneously a Dark Elf, forgetting he had seen the light of the trees.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

You want it both ways. If you refuse the council and advise of the Valar then why should the Valar help you? If you choose to leave the home they granted you, why should they give you a chance to return? The elves are lucky the Valar are merciful. By all rights the Valar could just abandon the Noldor to fade in Middle Earth.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

That was not the sole reason. They wanted power and wide lands to rule, they believed the lies of Morgoth. This cannot be escaped. The reasons the Noldor left were tainted.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

NO city on ME was as fair as Tirion, which they built in Valinor.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

Yes wanting to rule is selfish. The kings should be there to serve the people. The Rangers are the perfect example. Even when they are denied the glory, prestige and honour they deserve, they never stop protecting their subjects. That is true nobility.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading why Cirdan had greater foresight than even Elrond. Tolkien being the sort of writer he was, needed to explain why Cirdan would have greater foresight than Elrond, who had divine blood. The answer is Cirdan greatly wanted to go to Valinor, to see the Two Trees and to meet his kin and close friend Olwe. Yet at the request of the Valar he stayed and helped those in Middle Earth. That is why the Valar rewarded him with such great foresight.

The Princes of the Noldor were thinking about themselves and not what was best for their people. This was selfish and based on pride.

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

Yes, but they should have done what was best for their people and not only to extend their power and glory.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

Yes, because she knew in her heart even in this version she should have gone back to seek council from the Valar about what should be done. In this version her pride leads her to leaving Aman to thwart Feanor. Either way pride led her to an unwise decision.

This is the difference between Glorfindel and the other princes like Fingon and Turgon. Glorfindel left only out of his kinship to Turgon and a desire to help his people. Though he was wrong to rebel his motives were selfless and he was rewarded.

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

No I am saying she KNEW it was the right thing to return, but was to proud to do the right thing and did what she wanted.

It's not a coincidence in Tolkien that people without pride ending up ruling.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

That said Galadriel was very great and very powerful. She suffered for her mistakes and learned from them. She played a pivotal role in the destruction of Sauron and is rightly held in high esteem.

[Mithalwen]

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

In my opinion, being (hypothetically) perfect in a perfect society/environment is much easier than preserving even a strand of goodness in the midst of moral chaos and destruction. This applies to all characters. But for Fingolfin vs Ingwe the respect matter is more that just that. For all that Ingwe is the High King and a good boy, he is not great. Fingolfin's greatness trumps Ingwe's with no question. And so does Feanor's - if he's not the most flawed Elf of all times I'll eat my socks, but he is also the greatest, and in my eyes that is cause for respect.

However, most of the above is beside the point, and, as you said, we won't agree anyways, so I'm willing to drop the subject.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

I would disagree here. I think that Galadriel really did contemplate about the Ring, perhaps even the taking of it by force. And she did make her decision then and there with Frodo and Sam present. But there is nothing bad about it.

I do not like going Biblical, but I can't for the moment think of a better example. Adam and Eve were good people in Eden. Was it hard? Not really, because it was the only thing available. In essence, they could not have been otherwise until the apple story. Do you admire them for being good when they just stepped into the world? It's like saying you admire a baby for being small.

Some many years later, though, it is much harder for people to be good, because they are not anymore living in paradise; they are surrounded by less than good things. And now you really do appreciate good people and good deeds. It's not to be taken for granted.

However, there are no people that are so pure they don't even consider it. They can't not consider it, because they live in it. You might say "He did not even think of betrayal", but what that really says is "He thought of it and rejected it immediately without further consideration". It is impossible to be absolutely pure. And if a person considers the wrong thing, but still does right, that speaks of perhaps a more tainted but a stronger person, because it requires a stronger will to overcome a greater moral dilemma and still do right.

Moral of the story, firstly, this relates to why I respect the tempted and undefeated Galadriel more than the untempted Arwen. Secondly, that everyone who had a connection to the Ring was tempted in some fashion, even if it is not written.


I still have some posts to read from this thread, but I have to go now. I think that we are just saying the same thing over and over again, and we won't even agree on it because we're looking at it from opposite sides. I propose this: I will not repeat what I've said before because we're just standing on different streets and it's not getting anyone anywhere. At least this way I hope we will be able to bring the discussion back to the original question.

I must say, however, it's a pleasure to debate such things here with you!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

I agree and it is a shame Tolkien does not expand her role, but the story is very Hobbit centric.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

I think there would be quite a big change. At Rivendell as much as she would help Aragorn, she could not help but be overshadowed by Elrond and Galadriel. She also had no real right to interfere with Dunedain.

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

There is so much to Tolkien's work that even the greatest experts occasionally find something else they had missed.

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

Though it was dropped from the Appendix, Tolkien wanted to point out that Eldarion inherited all the elvish lands of the West through his mother.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

I agree and Arwen is not near Luthien in power. I was only pointing out why Luthien's innate power far exceeded Galadriel's and giving the comparisons.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

This is true and the Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth, but rejected him.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

I would agree with this. Though I would add Faramir there too.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Not necessarily, but I would agree it took greater strength of will for her to resist than say Faramir etc.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath. I will give you the quotes if you want.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

"With that power I should have power too great and too terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a powerstill greater and more deadly."..."Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to weild it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Yet there is more to it.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

I think the point is being power hungry often leads to a lack of power. Those who don't desire it are granted it.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

It is Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men."

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

Aragorn's words about the people differing on the exact distance suggest it is not mere geography. The fact that many people, who have been there cannot give you an accurate account of how many miles it takes to reach their shows there must be some enchantment about the place. Even Gandalf, who had been to Rivendell many times struggles to find it again.

You are right there is no direct quote that Elrond strove with Sauron mentally, but it is implied that all the wielders of the 3 rings did so.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

There is a difference between the temptation when you have the ring in your possession and merely just using it. The greater you are the greater it's hold on you when you actually have the ring. This does not apply if it is just sitting there. All through out the story we see people, who do not desire power having no problem rejecting the ring. It is only those, who desire power that are most tempted.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

Apart from Feanor, I think a lot of the wiser ones DID realise they could not win. Fingolfin is one of them, who knew it was a hopeless journey. Then Mandos tells them it is hopeless. They knew what they were getting into and were too proud to turn back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:

Originally Posted by LotR, Appendix B

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.

Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.