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Old 11-17-2012, 11:08 AM   #7
Draugohtar
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
Draugohtar has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim View Post
In The Silmarillion it is said that the entire history of the world is the product of the music of the Ainur, and they helped to shape the world and it's history through the Music they made, whose utmost source was the Theme given to them by Eru; The Ainur are the offspring of Eru's thought; Each Ainur being part or understanding only of that part of the mind of Eru from whence he or she came...So, logically, would it not be that the vanity and pride of Melkor came from a part of Eru's mind? What Melkor understood--vanity, a desire for power, a creative urge at best--would that not have come from some part of Eru's thought?
No, Eru understands Evil, but in Tolkien's universe he is in no way the source of it, in anything other than 'his' status as first cause. The Ainur have free will, as all creations in the Tolkien world. For example whilst there is much talk of 'high dooms' being upon people, it is also clear they could choose to step aside from that path. The 'flame imperishable' imbues creatures with true creativity.

It's important to note as well that Melkor does not begin 'Evil' nor are his first steps on that path neccessarily 'evil.'

Of Melkor:

Quote:
He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilъvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness.
It was from this impatience, pride and arch-ambition, that all of his evil came. Similiar traits in Aule, came out differently, all as a matter of fortune and personality.



Quote:
And also logically following, would not all the horrors (and beauty) of Middle Earth's history be, indirectly, the product of Eru's vision, of His music? ...
I will answer this with the familiar lines:
Quote:
Then Ilъvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilъvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
Essentially Ero ensures that all things will end in uttermost good, and that all evils are only a different path that matters can take before arriving at that conclusion.

Quote:
It's obvious some of the Maia and Valar did care; Gandalf being perhaps the best, most direct example...But what of the Valar as a whole? Or Eru? What regard do they hold for the fate of Arda and it's peoples?
The Valar are responsible for the removal of Morgoth Bauglir from Arda. That alone would leave everyone in middle earth in their debt. Plus they sent the Istari, having learned from their mistakes in the past, when it came to provinding aid of too lofty a standard to the Numernorians. The Valar understand the Elves, but not so much man, who is ultimately an enigma to them. They still do their best though.

Quote:
A last off topic question but: Who would be more responsible for Arda's creation? Eru or the Ainur? Eru laid the Foundation--the Theme--for them to play and by which create and shape the World, but it was their Music--each intricate, individual part which they themselves crafted based on Eru's theme--which directly shaped the world.
The 'shape' of the world appears to be mainly a product of the Valar 'group mind,' but the flame imperishable that renders beings truly 'alive' is a gift only Eru can bestow, and the 'Children' (even the Dwarves by adoption) are ultimately his creation.
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