TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, Nog, but I think you would also jump on it if a person who repeatedly defended a point started attacking it after some support from others.

If I were a wolf, I would be very much annoyed (you know this forum censures stronger expressions) if someone who backed me turned around to suspect me. Sure. As innocent I'd be annoyed as well, but that wouldn't make me concentrating my energy during the Night into a post trying to paint that person black just because he came to other thoughts... rather I'd ask her/him why that happened and tried to explain then the things the other person says made her/him suspect me.

And well, you only have my word for it, but I didn't change my mind on you because that idea got support. But think of this: if my modus operandi (my working rule) would have been trying to get you lynched in principle, or going with the flow and suspecting only those who others suspect, surely I wouldn't have defended you in the first place?

I did change my mind because of the way you suddenly jumped on Lommy (there was a train emerging there) - and especially the way you did it (you underlined it was the substance of her posts but never said anything about it yourself).

Originally Posted by G55

I'm shocked at how sure you sound with that "should". Don't be so confident, cause I don't.

So you confess?

Okay. A bad joke, and it's probably a misunderstanding there. I tried to say that if you were a wolf, your packmates would have told you not to do something as over the board as your rant you posted early into the Day, because it would only make you look more suspicious. But as you did post it... well maybe you don't have packmates to guide you?

Jesus it's late again. I'm into a list of sorts... (darn vacations... )

[Pomegranate]

I'm back again, and will have to vote soon. Eonwe's jump on my suspicion of Nog definitely did raise eyebrows. I feel like there's too many people too much into lynching him, though - Greenie obviously, but Lottie, Legate, Pitch and somewhat Lommy as well. Lottie's last post feels very bad for me for some reason.

I think Nogrod and Legate answered to my suspicions fairly well.

I agree that G55's Nog-hate was a bit weird, but I have myself written posts during the night, if I have known that I don't have time during the day. Especially if I feel I haven't done anything too big to make the wolves interested in myself. And given - again - that it's G55 we're talking about, strong wordings don't alarm me that much.

I shall do a bit of reading on Lottie and Legate before I vote, most probably for either of them. I don't think there's quite enough reason to vote for Nog and I also think Eonwe, while being somewhat fishy, is fishy enough for two votes this early in the game. Broadening the view a bit.

And since I've almost gone through everyone, a bit more about the rest. Boro has a vague feeling of goodness in him today, I think it was there also yesterday, it was just not normal behaviour of his. Same goes with Inzil - people that I can't make myself to suspect without way too much time in my hands and energy to go through their posts over and over again. Greenie I just can't read at all, same goes with Shasta so far.

x/ed with Eonwe's both

[Pomegranate]

First of all, I could read my posts through more carefully before posting them.

I don't think there's quite enough reason to vote for Nog and I also think Eonwe, while being somewhat fishy, is fishy enough for two votes this early in the game.

is obviously missing a 'not' in the last clause.

But yeah. I think, to the extent that I have energy to investigate, Legate's still the most suspicious. For the reasons I mentioned earlier (though he did answer pretty well, you can never answer well enough in this game, right? Because there's no knowing for sure) and for jumping on Eonwe. Sure enough, Eonwe might be a wolf, but in case he's innocent, that's a horrible bandwaggon there. I really do hope you guys who are still around look into at least Legate, Eonwe and Lommy (who is suspicious but has posted so much I can't make myself go through her posts - good technique for a wolf, exhausting all the hunters), for I am in no ways sure that Legate would the bad one and Eonwe the good one. I have a strong vibe that one of them is worth lynching.

++Legate

Good night, everyone!

edit. an awesome but really confusing mis-spelling corrected

[Eönwë]

So, toDay, I realised that I had to options. Either to blend in, and accept what I knew was wrong in the hope that I would survive but running the risk of getting lynched (I will be around when I wake up for about half an hour after this toDay and that's it), or to fight against what I knew was wrong, leading me to get killed at Night.

I fear I made the wrong decision, but it is too late now. And now I know that I will get Night-killed if I don't ask the Ranger for help.

Sorry village, but I am your Seer.

I doubt that there was any way Nogrod was going to let me survive after that post- even if he gets taken down because of it, since it's clear that I lead to him. There's no way they can risk me getting another dream.

So yeah, here're the facts.

Nogrod is a wolf, a northern spy, a vile plotter, etc.

I also got an ordo, but I don't think it's good to name xem because then xe will just get killed.






So, obviously, toDay I've just been provoking people to see their reactions.


My opinion now:

Evil-
Nog
Legate

Maybe evil-
Lommy

Quite good-
Boro
G55
Lottie
Pom
Zil
Shasta




Kill Nogrod, investigate, don't trust anyone.

That is all village, goodnight for now, and I'll answer as much as I can when I get back.

[Inziladun]

That's good enough for me, Eönwë. I don't see what you as a Spy would have to gain by deception, it's easy enough to tell if you're on the level. And, as I've been so politely reminded, we have no Cobbler this time around.

++Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So, obviously, toDay I've just been provoking people to see their reactions.

Provoking? Where and whom, please? I must have missed that. You did not seem very much trying to provoke reactions to me...

I mean, somebody (not me, I am now going to sleep! - but I suggest people in general could do that if we want to try to figure out if Steve is lying or not) should check his toDay's discussion with Nogrod, whether it makes sense... like, trying to look at it in the light of as if Steve was the Seer knowing from the beginning of this Day (or the previous one?) that Nog was a Wolf.

Eönwë, did you dream about Nog on first or second Night, huh?

Gaps and holes in the presentation...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's good enough for me, Eönwë. I don't see what you as a Spy would have to gain by deception, it's easy enough to tell if you're on the level. And, as I've been so politely reminded, we have no Cobbler this time around.

++Nogrod

Add this to the list of things that makes me raise my eyebrows on Zil so high that I'm probably brushing the ceiling. Complete, unquestioned, immediate trust to such a *weird* person (sorry, Eönwë, meaning the style, of course)
with such a *weird* (= one which has some strange gap in it, the not naming the ordo thing???) revelation?

Once again: Why not to name the ordo??????????

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Add this to the list of things that makes me raise my eyebrows on Zil so high that I'm probably brushing the ceiling. Complete, unquestioned, immediate trust to such a *weird* person (sorry, Eönwë, meaning the style, of course)
with such a *weird* (= one which has some strange gap in it, the not naming the ordo thing???) revelation?

If he's lying, we'll have a Spy toMorrow at the least. Why not try it? It's better than a stab in the proverbial dark.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Once again: Why not to name the ordo??????????

Because, if he does so toNight, the spies will just kill the ordo. If he waits, and gets a Ranger protect toNight, he can give us at the worst two innocents toMorrow, and a larger problem for the baddies.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Dun

It's likely I'll be voting long before DL as a rule here. It falls into my exercise time.

Yeah, sure, your “beat pillow with fist” exercise time.

Okay, to business (though we all know I must get my one-liners in).

Originally Posted by Legate, re: acolyte

Cooperation, yes, that's another possibility. Does not sound bad. Could be also that the Acolyte could be getting some "partial info" from the Seer or whatnot... and based on that could also choose sides... (For example: Night 1: Seer dreams of Freddy and sees him innocent, the Acolyte gets info "Seer dreamed of Freddy" or "Seer dreamed of innocent"... okay, that sounds stretched, I'm making up stuff from the top of my head, but you know, something... random...)

Quite possible, I’d say. Were I to compare it to another role, I would liken it to the dream catcher I had for my first game. Given last Night’s events, however, it is unlikely that’s the case.

Originally Posted by Steve

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

The idea could also work? This phrasing strikes me as odd. This was one of the things he said that bothered me yesterDay, but when I got home and tried to find it again, I couldn’t. :/

Originally Posted by Dun

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

THANK YOU.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I could not have done the foul deed. If I was the murderer, that would have meant that I foresaw my role in choosing the occupation, which would imply that I'm a Seer. I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!

Just making a note of this for now, in case it becomes relevant later. (Acolyte, etc.)

Originally Posted by Pitch

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

Actually, I’d say that’s a distinct possibility. “I can’t figure out why X is acting this way. Oh! X is probably the acolyte, and they’re doing Y because their role entails Z.” You can see where wolves can easily benefit from this sort of discussion, right? (In the post following this one, Galadriel expresses a similar sentiment.)

Originally Posted by Rikae

It seems to me that with the relatively high number of wolves in this village, the acolyte is more likely helpful than harmful.

I certainly would hope so.

Originally Posted by Steve

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

I’m not saying he’s bad, but he’s bad. Wait, what?

Originally Posted by Pitch

Yes you can - if you're a turned acolyte. Maybe.

Also filing this one away for later. Interesting that he responded to this.

Originally Posted by Pitch

The birthday dreamer I remember just got a dream on a predetermined Night, without any role change involved (right, Lottie?). Otherwise, this is basically the same as Boro's mythomaniac, which looks like a coherent theory to me.

Serious question. Why did you specifically ask Lottie? It seems I’ve forgotten something.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

This post has made me very angry. Yes, angry. This way of saying it infuriates me. You could have just said "G55 didn't post anything on content", which would be more or less true. But the way you're saying it is more like "oh look Lottie, you are against people who talk banter and here's G55 posting along whom you haven't analyzed yet. Wanna say that particularily she is useless?"

Yes, I'm saying this despite the risk of flying up on people's suspicion lists. This is what I think of you, and I'm not afraid to say it. Let's all decide that G55 is not posting anything useless, but let that come from someone else's mouth, eh? If you suspect me, say so. If you don't like the way I post, say so. If I'm on the top of your lynch list, say so. Don't ask Lottie to say it for you, or talk to her as though it's a private conversation between you and her!


*deep breath*

/rant.

Well hello.


HERE ENDETH PAGE ONE. GOOD LORD.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Is this the post that was pointed out later in the thread? If not, hello, hunter hint. How does the hunter’s pick change thing work? I need to check out the rules.

Originally Posted by Legate

Rikae - looks straightforward, I can follow her line of thoughts, no problem, does not seem to be manipulative in any way etc.

“Does not seem to be manipulative in any way” seems like an odd turn of phrase. I realize that Rikae’s always a bit....well, nuts, but “in any way” seems, to me, to suggest possible other knowledge. Of course Rikae’s not evil, so that actually would speak in his favor, except....wouldn’t a wolf want to align himself with an ordo, find an ally besides his mates?

Originally Posted by Boro, re: Galadriel

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

Concurrence, we have it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

How do you know what he would do as a wolf? Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by Lommie

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, orZil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

A valid point, as I also recognized the sarcasm, but, my dear, we both know how often wolves hide behind sarcasm. I’m not saying that the others didn’t overreact to it, but it was a weird statement for him to make it. Something to file away, but not immediately lynch someone for, I’d say.

Originally Posted by Legate, re: Boro

He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point)

I get the point, but I don’t agree with it. I think he’s being normal Boro, just not as on top of things. However, I obviously agreed with you about Bom, so we’ll call it even, yes?

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

If she hadn’t made her previous statement about how she thought an Inzilawolf would act, I wouldn’t have thought much of this, but the fact that she’s said such things twice worries me.

Originally Posted by Steve

G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

She’s impossible to read, but you’ve got a read on her? Another Steveism I don’t like.

Originally Posted by Boro, re: Galadriel

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

I find this to be an extremely valid point.


HERE ENDETH PAGE TWO.

Originally Posted by Lottie

People like Bom and Sally are basically expected to post little to nothing of substance on Day One. You and Legate are not. When people do what I'm not used to them doing, I pay attention more than when they do what I am used to them doing.

Ahem.

Originally Posted by Legate, re: Boro

Again. He is being too nice, if he is all right, I will eat my shoe, seriously. Normal Boro attacks people. This Boro defends people. No. It is incredibly stupid to suspect people based on that they are nice and such, but it was the very same Boro who had told me last time (after the game when I suspected him and then backed off and failed to lynch him) that I should not give up on this lead... so I won't. Nice Boro is most likely a Wolf. Normal Boro tends not to smudge honey all over you.

First of all, saying someone’s suspicions are “incredibly stupid” is not going to make me feel any better about you, sir. More importantly, people’s styles may change from game to game; for instance, Rikae is....no, she’s always insane and shouty in an endearing sort of say, but Nog....no, Nog always rails about lack of participation, though you....actually, you, Legate, can at times be both mirthful and serious. I get judging someone based on their demeanor, but saying that someone else is dumb for not doing the same? Stop it.

Even more importantly, what Boro does with his condiments is between us.

Originally Posted by Boro

You ever have one of those days where it feels like you can't remember what you've been doing all day? That's been me today...like I swear I've kept up-to-date on all the replies, and by Day 1 standards it appears moderately productive, yet...I haven't the faintest clue what the heck I've been reading. Nothing is sinking in, it's as if I'm reading words but not complete sentences with thoughts and ideas.

Flip yes. Just....goodness, this game is killing me for some reason. This post has taken me hours, simply because I keep needing to swan off for a bit and focus on something else. :/

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Though the last point - illogical as it is - points to Lottie's innocence rather than guilt, because, as with Zil, I don't think a wolf would deliberately say such a thing that would put him/her into the light.

Let the record show that this is the third time Galadriel has speculated about Dun’s werewolf style.

Originally Posted by Steve

Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?

Fair enough, but the entire tone of your post (which starts with, “Do I need to explain myself again?”) is extremely worrisome. Why are you so worked up? Worried, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Shasta

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

....I think you may be onto something.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

I’d rather agree with this analysis as well, though this game has already had so many miscommunications that it’s getting ridiculous....

Originally Posted by Nog

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

....I know there’s an angry face at the end of that, but it still feels....well, didn’t he end up voting for Bom? I mean, really. The flip? Alarm. Bells. Ringing.

Originally Posted by Legate

Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to saveBoro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.

Also keeping hold of this for later....


HERE ENDETH PAGE THREE.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

And look at that. Shasta and I agree again!

Originally Posted by Nog

Well Shasta, you put us in dire straits as to whether act like we say we should act or hunker down wishing for a better result and ignoring the principle. I'm really torn with it. The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16, but you're right that if we don't do it toDay, we will be cursing it later (supposing he continues the same way) when we don't feel any more we can afford checking him.

This. Does. Not. Sound. Natural.

Originally Posted by Lommie

We don't want a tie and die, do we, precious?

I repeat the above. Not. Natural. Actually, it does, I suppose, but it’s still worrisome. :/


HERE ENDETH PAGE FOUR (AND DAY ONE).

Originally Posted by Galadriel

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

....Maybe? I still don’t know. >.<

Originally Posted by Galadriel

What bothers me is Nog’s flipfloppiness (does this run in the family?). In all seriousness, though – he starts out standing his ground against Boro, and keeps this up while the general mood is leaning towards me being innocent (Boro is clearly outnumbered). But then Shasta consistently and persistently sides with Boro, and Lommy joins in saying I’m not that shiny. And only now Nog has second thoughts about my outburst, and decides that it didn’t actually look good, and that my vote wasn’t well-explained either, and all that. And as the support for this keeps up, he repeats it more often.

Though when the village doesn’t actually end up lynching me, he backs off and says that it’s better that Bom is lynched.

This is actually....true-ish. I still don’t trust either of them though.

Yes, Elmer Fudd hunts wabbits, but the Coyote hunts the Roadrunner. Was Rikae trying to bait the wolves into thinking she was the Seer, who had dreamed Boro? But that would have meant she would have hunted Boro, and obviously, he's still with us. I don't know.

I don’t know, but I keep reading acolyte as coyote and vice versa. Perhaps it’s nearing bedtime. >.<

Originally Posted by Dun

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom. So did Eönwë, who had previously said I would be his likely vote, and offered no reason for voting Bom, other than he didn't want to vote Lommy. Why didn't either of them vote for me, instead of going after Bom? Yes, believe me, I know Bom's antics like that can be frustrating. It still looks like a very easy bandwagon, though.

Regardless of whether I trust Dun, he’s got a good point here about Steve.

Originally Posted by Greenie, re: Lommie

This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd.

Point.

Originally Posted by Greenie

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

For a logical hunter, it makes sense. “Hello, yes, I’m dead now, but I hunted this person, and they’re still alive, so that means they’re not evil. Enjoy the hearty beast.”

Originally Posted by Legate

...and making a camel out of a midget (Czech proverb - I think in English it's mountain out of a molehill) with this analysis and finishing with saying an innocent wouldn't do that at all.

I bloody love you. Ahem. Anyway, I like this point (or rather the points around it, the ones about Steve trying to set people up). I still don’t like you though. (You know what I mean.) Just because you’re right about him grasping doesn’t mean you’re not trying to set him up for setting someone up for setting up a shop in Kansas selling chocolate envelopes.

Greenie expresses the same sentiment in the next post, but she’s more....honest about it? I don’t know. It doesn’t feel as unnatural to me, though at this point I’m rather exhausted.


THUS ENDETH PAGE FIVE. SCREW YOU ALL. I’M DONE WITH THIS FOR NOW. (ALSO, I LOVE YOU ALL. NOW PLEASE DIE.)


At this point, let’s examine what Sally thinks....



Guilty:
Galadriel
Dun
Steve
Legate
Nog
Pitch

Probably Innocent:
Boro
Shasta
PomPom

Still Thinking:
Greenie
Lommie
Lottie


Before you ask, yes, I’ve seen Steve’s reveal, and I’ll deal with that in a moment, but I wanted to wrap up this stuff first so I wasn’t entirely colored by that revelation.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Though no one found last Night’s kills funny
And Shasta’s not calling me honey
I still made a post
Of who I like most
And who I think we should send running


I've bolded and everything, and appreciate your patience. Also, I'm about to fall asleep....

[satansaloser2005]

Legate: Chill. Out. For reasons that someone else pointed out, even if Steve is the real seer, it would be unwise for him to reveal his dreams at this time. ToMorrow, sure, but not toDay. It would just get his dreams killed. Get some sleep, love. I know it'll make sense to you in the morning.

Steve: If you're lying, I'm going to end you.

Nog: Die, my pretty! Diiiiiiieeeeeeeee! Etc. Also, go to bed if you haven't already. <3


Considering that Nog is already on my top suspect list, I'm not at all hesitant to vote him. If I'm/we're wrong, I'll deal with it toMorrow (and also tomorrow). For now, however, I'm going with it, because Steve's reveal is in line with my own thoughts (and if he's lying, as previously mentioned, I can kill him, which is equally fun).

++Nog


Or, as they say in Limerick....

It's time for Miss Sally to sleep
So I must choose who not to keep
So let us not worry
If Nogrod is furry
If not, upon Steve we will creep


(Not at all my best, but I'm seriously falling asleep. I wish you all the best, and may we all be alive come morning.)

[Nogrod]

13 people of which 4 are wolves, 1 seer, 1 ranger, 1 Acolyte (whatever it means, but seems to kill at Nights) and 6 ordinary innocents.

If we get it wrong toDay, and the wolves kill one innocent - and the Acolyte yet another one, the worst case scenario for toMorrow would be: 10 people, of which 4 wolves, 5 innocents and the Acolyte. So at best 6-4 to us, at worst 5-5.

So let's make it good toDay.


In the order of appearance in the Mod-list

Boromir88: I'm suspecting him still even if he has been acting more Boroesque toDay. All this Rikae-stuff makes me doubt though. My reason says Rikae did not hunt him (why would she, after that open hinting?), but did Borowolf count on it being bluff (or was he afraid she was the seer?) or was it some others who tried to capitalise on the interpretation that we would then suspect Boro on her death (quite schemy and daring wolves then)? The way he revealed his wolfPOV, or hindsight POV, with Eönwë's suspicions on me he was only too happy to continue makes me wonder as well. If innocent he should have realised there was no way of knowing whether Bom was a wolf or an innocent beforehand on D1.

Sally: A few limericks (thanks Sally, they make me leer) and obviously a lot of RL constraints. But still I'd like to hear more from her. Hard to say anything, and if this continues, I'm starting to get worried about her.

Galadriel55: I think I have talked enough of her. YesterDay's sudden Lommy-vote was bad and her start of the Day attack on me was at least as bad. I do suspect her.

Shasta: Where are you? I liked his contributions yesterDay and well, there has been nothing toDay thus far, so looking forwards to hear more from him.

Steve: I don't know what to say. He clearly had determination there (and yes, jumping on the points Pomegranate had already made). Unless he answers to my question to him (and Boro), I'll think him very much a suspect.

Pomegranate: I'm more or less agreeing with the majority that she looks both sharp and well, although I suspected her strong language in her first posts on my Bom-lynch -issue (or how she handled Legate: I think I've never seen Legate as explanational than there ). Seeing that she voted Legate (whom I tend to trust somewhat) sure makes me wonder what did it mean when she said he answered her questions "fairly well" - and yet merited a vote. Also she talks of two votes for Eönwë which is either incorrect or then I have missed something; or that we should look at Legate, Eönwë (sic!) and Lommy while the person voting Eönwë is Greenie! (I'm really thinking I'm missing something here)

A Little Green: I'm somewhat astonished I'm not suspecting her yet, but she looks pretty reasonable - and I do agree with her on many points this time around. So no flags, as yet.

Pitchwife: I don't like a lot of the things he does and If I have time, I'm going to look at him more closely tomorrow after I wake up. There's an edge, and kind of vileness to his posting I do not recognize.

Lottie: Her absence has clearly washed away any thoughts I might have had of her off from my brain toDay. The last one looks decent though, but it might be because she suspects Steve heavily there and I do share the feeling. She's also someone I should take a closer look.

Inziladun: Well the enigma then. And here's why. There has been a lot of talk that he was weird yesterDay, and many explanations, and further questions, and the very same explanations going around and around with him. But they are beside the point. The point is, what Rikae asked from him when I was shy to do it that bluntly (even if I tried to ask him about it), namely: "Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!" A wolf backing into "I'm a bit cryptic, yeah, but things are going on now, don't ask me" (paraphrased, of course), or the Acolyte? If the Acolyte kills people I think we have the right to ask him about it... (that he kills people, we didn't know yesterDay, and that was one of the main reasons I didn't ask him straight - or bring that idea forth in the first place)

Lommy!: I think she acts like her normal self - which is to say quite little. She talks sense and I have nothing against her thus far - nor any reasons to trust her over the careful reasonableness -point.

Legate of Amon Lanc: We seem to agree on many things and that makes me feel good with him, but I'm also quite aware that a cunning wolf he could be would possibly try the same. But still, I have no reasons to suspect him and as long as we seem to be on the same side on certain issues, which are the only things I can rely at this point of the game, I'm actually pretty happy with it.


EDIT: X'd with Eönwë... WHAT? (and I thought I had earned some sleep...)

[Nogrod]

Eönwë: why didn't you vote for me if you claim you're the seer and "know" I'm a "northern spy"...

I know why.

You wish to reserve your vote into some later stage if your bluff is revealed and you need it for your self-preservation...

I thought it was odd G55 and you came after me with such fervour and determination (and Boro parrotting you). So I was right. You think you have that nice numbers that even if a ploy is revealed toDay there are enough confusion around that you win nicely even if this scheme of yours backfires.

Heh, I can see Boro's signature behind this... a bit distracted, not his sharp self... right.


EDIT: X'd with a lot - also Eönwë's vote I see... so you feel secure enough?
EDIT2: No it was not Eönwë, but Zil... the Acolyte is ready and willing, right?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eönwë: why didn't you vote for me if you claim you're the seer and "know" I'm a "northern spy"...

I know why.

Well, he did say he was coming back before DL.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, he did say he was coming back before DL.

Exactly that. When he can see whether his bluff worked or if he needs to try to save himself.

Remember there are four wolves and they can use their numbers unlike we can... so even if this backfires they still have a chance if enough of us stray and they can blend in.

And if you lynch me, then I require you others find out if Zil (the happy first voter) is actually the Acolyte and what does he think killing us...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Exactly that. When he can see whether his bluff worked or if he needs to try to save himself.

Remember there are four wolves and they can use their numbers unlike we can... so even if this backfires they still have a chance if enough of us stray and they can blend in.

And if you lynch me, then I require you others find out if Zil (the happy first voter) is actually the Acolyte and what does he think killing us...

We don't even know the Acolyte is evil, do we? If you think I am he, why does that automatically make me worthy of lynching?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

We don't even know the Acolyte is evil, do we? If you think I am he, why does that automatically make me worthy of lynching?

You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Me

We can't afford to lose an innocent in principle, but there sure are some chances (the Acolyte might not have a kill every Night, the ranger might save someone etc.). If we lynch Eönwë toDay, we're one wolf down, and you get one more dream (I'd suggest Boro or G55) while the ranger protects you. Then we'd have a second wolf, most likely. But you can of course come forwards and reveal the falsity of Eönwë - especially if you have other good news to bring.

I see I'm getting too tired as my logic makes this kind of errors - arguing the same case as two alternatives...

So what I meant was, come forwards if you think it the best way of action (read my numbers closely) or stay hidden if you think that is the better route.

Eönwë's reveal is known to be false toMorrow anyway whether you guys lynch me or him. So after that there should be no problems on that issue.

Time might be scarce, though, if you pick it wrong.


++ Eönwë


Good Night and Good Luck (will be back, but see no reason to not make my vote now)

[Inziladun]

Last word:

For anyone who believes Eönwë is lying, I encourage you to vote for me over him.

That is all.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Last word:

For anyone who believes Eönwë is lying, I encourage you to vote for me over him.

That is all.

I saw that!

(I was just going to shut my computer down)

So you are the acolyte.

And your hands are tied. And you don't like it. I don't blame you for that.


But how this comes as no surprise...


Okay.

If it is your task to kill people, and you want to get rid of that, let's do it then (sadly I used my vote already).

After that it is just the goodies vs. the baddies with no random factor meddling with it, and the seer has an added chance. (Even if the worst scenario happens we lead by two toMorrow)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Nogrod is a wolf, a northern spy, a vile plotter, etc.

++NOG

I'm actually really surprised at myself for going after someone that's actually evil this time, because in past games my suspects were usually ordos and gifteds, regardless of my own role.

Am I making progress?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That said!!! Just occured to me. Steve, if you ARE real Seer, you SHOULD tell us the name of your Ordo. Because either you get night-killed or the ordo does, but the Ranger can protect you first Night, and the Ordo after that. So you SHOULD tell us.

But the wolves won't go for a target that's obviously protected - and the Ranger would be mad mad MAD not to protect the Seer. They will just move around the Ranger.

Originally Posted by Legate

And that by the way further fortifies my belief in Eönwë's fakeness. Really.

I am not convinced in any way that Nogrod is innocent, but I am rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake. A rather not very well done Wolfy Seer-revelation-attempt, since he does not know whom he should reveal as ordo, because he does not know whether to name a packmate or not...

Hmm. It is of course still possible he is not lying. But I really don't like it.

Also it is interesting for him to suddenly have me on top of his suspect list right after I got a vote, while I don't believe he had suspected me so much before.

This looks rather sinister. So you say that "no, Steve lies, you shouldn't believe him!", but in the same post you back up and say that just maybe he's right... cause what if he is, and then you'll be suspected of trying to save your packmate. Sure, you justify it - veeery feebly. This by itself would give me reason to believe Eonwe's right is suspecting you.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?

And you know that how? (By "that" I mean that it was Zil)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't see Zil denying it.

If everyone denied every accusation thrown at them the only thing we'd hear is "you're wrong, I'm innocent!"



Nog's last post: And HOW DO YOU KNOW? If Inzil would rather him!ordo be lynched than Eonwe!Seer, well, that's a noble sacrifice. But since you've painted Eonwe evil, you'd have to paint Inzil evil too. It just doesn't make sense. No. Your whole scenario, that is. I have no regrets or second thoughts about voting you.

[Pomegranate]

Actually, Nog was the first one to say anything in any ways questioning about me:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pomegranate: I'm more or less agreeing with the majority that she looks both sharp and well, although I suspected her strong language in her first posts on my Bom-lynch -issue (or how she handled Legate: I think I've never seen Legate as explanational than there ). Seeing that she voted Legate (whom I tend to trust somewhat) sure makes me wonder what did it mean when she said he answered her questions "fairly well" - and yet merited a vote. Also she talks of two votes for Eönwë which is either incorrect or then I have missed something; or that we should look at Legate, Eönwë (sic!) and Lommy while the person voting Eönwë is Greenie! (I'm really thinking I'm missing something here)

not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

[Eönwë]

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)


edit: x-ed with Sally.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!

Thank you, that simplifies things.

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I fully understand that you didn't attack him on Day 1, but to actually vote with a known wolf against an unknown?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I didn't get a chance to properly read the thread before voting, so I didn't realise it originated at Nog. That's why when I saw it, and saw how easily it caught the village, I felt I had to attack him before he could cause any more damage, which was probably a bit of a (read: very much a) rash decision.

[Eönwë]

Boromir88 - I don't know. Something about him seems a bit off, but he seems to speak sense. But isn't he more vocal usually? Why is he so quiet?

Sally - At first I was leaning guilty, now I'm leaning innocent. She hasn't posted enough. It's more recappy like Shasta did on Day 1, which isn't really a good measure of good or bad.

Shasta - Crazy. About as crazy as Legate. And he worries me.

Pomegranate - I still find her sharp and innocent.

A Little Green - She is far too deep under my radar. So she worries me.

Pitchwife - I've been flip-flopping on him the whole game. At first he seemed dark and evil, then good, and now I'm uncertain again.

Lottie - The only reason I don't have a strong feeling of her innocence is her lack of posts. And that's a big reason, because she's usually pretty vocal.

Inziladun- Obviously, he's innocent.

Lommy - If Legate turns out to be evil, she needs to be re-evaluated, because she would seem pretty bad in that case. If not, I don't know.

Legate of Amon Lanc - Weird, crazy, evil. Maybe. Some of his most recent posts have started to look relatively genuine, which worries me. But I think he's done enough to condemn him.


So basically, now I suspect everyone except for Zil and Pom, and Lottie to a lesser extent.

[Eönwë]

I feel myself physically falling asleep at my computer (and I want to wake up aerlier so that I can talk more in the time before the DL, so here are a few final observations for now:

-I've looked over Lottie's posts. Their actual content seems innocent, but she seems way too quiet for normal Lottie, so I'm not sure what to think about that.

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.

-Still not sure what I think about the Shasta vs Legate thing toDay.



Of course, my main suspicion lies with Legate, but to a lesser extent, I also suspect Shasta, and there're also Boro, Lommy and Pitch who seem to be hanging around in my mind as possibly evil.

Obviously, Zil is good, and I still think Pom looks good. Lommy's more recent posts look quite good, but overall, she still seems kinda suspicious to me.

I still have no idea what to do with Sally or Greenie. I will look at them when I get back.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

Originally Posted by Inzil

I don't know about Boro. He feels less "natural" for him toDay than he did yesterDay. I'm used to an innocent Boro being a cunning, bold wolf-hunter and I really haven't seen that.

Maybe if I actually had some gift in this game, I would see your point about not being myself. But really, I know nothing more than any other non-spy or seer. All I can do here is if I see it, call bs on someone and hopefully not do something disastrous like lynching the seer. If I can manage that, I think I've done the best I can, you lot...expect too much from me.

But I do realize I've been rubbish as far as giving my clear thoughts about today/lynching Nog/Ranger killed. It's nothing you're missing though, when it's essentially "I would not in the least bit have a problem with lynching Legate and/or* Shasta today."

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.

I'm well aware there are more spies than just Legate a/o Shasta, but I am perhaps the worst multi-tasker you'll ever know. Give me one thing to do. I'll execute it and then move on to the next thing. Asking me to jumble all these ideas of a Legate-Shasta-Pitch, Shasta-Lommy-Greenie, Legate-sally-Lommy spy combinations is a processing overload for me. So unless you want my brain to explode, let me go about my business one step at a time. Starting with either Legate or Shasta today. Comprende?

Edit: crossed with everyone since Pom's that I quoted

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.

Interesting. It would, but does the hint really explicitely say that it is Inzil? I am still not getting the whole hint business...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.

And I owe you apologies for the really strong suspicion, and for calling you weird, although... well, there was something weird about your behavior. But well, happens.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.

No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

Also, anyway, if we really did it, it doesn't mean letting Boro off the hook. Quite the opposite. I mean, such a lynch, even if Shasta was a Wolf, would serve the Wolves just as well as us, number-wise. (If not even better. Somebody with better math skills should calculate that.)

I wonder what people think about it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

And relax. I wasn't being serious with that double lynch, but expressing my annoyance at both of you, and overall annoyance at this "Legate-Lottie-Shasta" "Lommy-sally-Shasta" spy-trifecta chatter today. Annoyed to the point where, at this time I couldn't care less if either you or Shasta were lynched, therefor you could both go. Give a few hours to have some hot chocolate, watch some guilty pleasure/trash and I'll be significantly less annoyed.

[Loslote]

I've got to vote early, so I'll go ahead and

++Legate

For the reasons stated in my earlier post, especially his reaction to Steve's reveal. Good lynching, everyone!

[Loslote]

I was feeling so good about Pom...but I'm beginning to wonder. She's been playing with a bit of a cautious hand, not getting into much drama, and basically staying in the shadows while seeming to be sharp and helpful. Also...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

This post of Boro's makes me think that not only would Pom and Nog, as Lommy said, be likely packmates, but so would Pom and Boro. In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Loslote

In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

I don't see why "in the future" has to mean "not in this game", unless you decide to read it so; this is a constructed argument.

I must admit I had more or less forgotten about Lottie for the last two Days (sorry dear), but I don't like this.

[Galadriel55]

OK, my next bit of posts...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I realize I think quite differently than most, and, as I said, I know Bom has done some frustrating things, but is voting for one's self on Day 1 really something a wolf would be likely to do? I can see some legitimately feeling like there was no better option, and voting for him, but there's got to be baddies on that wagon.

Most certainly there's at least one there - probably more.


Legate @ 194: I think you're critisizing Eonwe too harshly. I really don't see why you think his Nogalysis looks so bad. I didn't find it particularly evil-looking or suspicious. It was alright.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?

1. In a game of WW, thoughts that are left unspoken are of very little value. You can't prove thoughts. You can only prove words. Thinking about something can get you to something, but not the game as a whole. Speaking aloud does.

2. As I said before (though still after this post) - I do not have time today to look for so many quotes, so it was a risk it or hold your peace situation, and I'm not gonna hold my peace if I think something looks suspicious. Moreover, with all the suspicion comming my way yesterDay after I went to bed, it would be a waste of scapegoat/wagon/whateveryouwannacallit for the wolves to kill me at Night. They usually go for those who are generally considered innocent and would not be lynched, unless they are aiming at a person for a reason greater than to make a kill that won't endanger them (eg: suspected of Seering).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

No. I was not proposing to lynch Bom because he is Bom. That would be stupid. I was suggesting it because of how he played, especially the self-vote.

Errr... that is lynching Bom because he's Bom - you can put all the words that describe him - crazy, random, etc - into one: Bom. That's just him. If you're lynching him for his playing style, you're lynching him for being him.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But then you Boro seem to fall into the fallacy of hindsight or that of wolvery (both meaning "knowing things"). You can choose which one...

You lost me somewhere here.... how so?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And well, you only have my word for it, but I didn't change my mind on you because that idea got support. But think of this: if my modus operandi (my working rule) would have been trying to get you lynched in principle, or going with the flow and suspecting only those who others suspect, surely I wouldn't have defended you in the first place?

When you defended me it was Boro against the general mood that was "she's probably innocent" - one against a few.

But... I'll take your word for now, and "moving" you from red to orange categories.

Originally Posted by Nog

So you confess?

Yes, I confess of my innocence.

Originally Posted by Nog

Okay. A bad joke, and it's probably a misunderstanding there. I tried to say that if you were a wolf, your packmates would have told you not to do something as over the board as your rant you posted early into the Day, because it would only make you look more suspicious. But as you did post it... well maybe you don't have packmates to guide you?

OK, because to me it sounded more like an overconfident statement saying that I do have mates who for some reason didn't instruct me properly. It's clear now.