TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Inzil's #47 is chock-full of fun and games, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

If you're talking about when she blew up at Rikae, I tend to disagree here (what? Shasta disagrees with Nogrod?) And I tend to disagree with Boro, too, when he mentioned that "that's typical G55." I'm almost certain I've never seen G55 explode like that, and the post she made after to clarify what she was saying (indeed, that she felt like she had to clarify at all) looks suspicious to me.

Also, the fact that it's Nogrod, of all people, defending what seems to be an emotional outburst is an immediate red flag.

Also also -

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think Greenie might be up to something with her suspicion on the behaviour of some with the Legate - Zil -discussion.

I was originally going to say "He's the third, along with Pitch and Greenie!" but then realized he's actually talking about Greenie's later post, which was quite valid. So that's okay then.

Originally Posted by G55

Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.

I don't know if I'd go that far.

Originally Posted by Lommy

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

Aha, that's what I was wondering about, as well.

ADD:

Originally Posted by Inzil

Pardon? I don't think I mentioned that bit from Pitch at all.

Lommy at #58.
Inzil at #59.

Okay, sure. Those two posts together, though, made me think the same thing Lommy thought. (Which is weird! )

Originally Posted by Eonwe

And this still means that Lottie looks bandwaggony, and without a good excuse, since it was definitely and definitively resolved by that point, considering that everyone present except Pitchwife and Boro (on which note, Boro has actually said very little of actual substance so far) had voiced their opinion that any discussion was better than no discussion.

I disagree. It looks to me as though Lottie was simply answering Inzil's statement there (look at the wording.)

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!

-snickers-

Originally Posted by Lottie

That wasn't an attack by any means. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'. This seems to me like a Lommy-wolf overreacting to what she perceives as suspicion on her packmate, and responding by agreeing that he's suspicious but also throwing the 'attack' into poor light. I'd like to, first of all, keep a closer look at their interactions, but also note that Lommy is now one of my top suspicions.

Mmm... Personally, I never saw your post as the attack (we are talking about that post with "manage to", right?), but rather I thought Inzil was jumping on it a bit. Lommy appears to have thought the same (see above), until Inzil corrected her, which doesn't seem to be that suspicious to me (as I thought the same). So, are you suspecting Lommy for calling your post the attack, then?

ADD:

Originally Posted by Lommy

Uggh, I should wake up in less than 8h, so better quit ww now. I don't really have much to add - maybe just that I still think Lottie's comment about Pitch sounded like a "lookee, lookee, he made a slip!" and if someone agreed she'd be ready to go "exactly, that's what I said!" but if someone questioned her reasoning she'd be saying "I was just making fun of him". I'll be back well before the DL and vote then based on all the evidence that has piled up while I've been sleeping and attending my morning lecture...

Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.

In Legate's #68 (and, apparently, in his list from earlier, as I think that's where Eonwe got his quote), he apparently legitimately suspects Inzil? Which, then, looks a bit like a Legatewolf going "Hey, people bought that? Okay, let's go with it!"

I do agree with him about Bom, though. But then I always suspect Bom and want to vote him on principle.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

Does anyone get what I mean?

Re: Lottie answering Rikae. Well, to me it looks like Lottie received a question directed at her, and answered it, like a normal person. I don't really see much wrong with that.

Pitch has a reaction that's remarkably similar to Nogrod's about G55 in #75. Somehow, though, it feels just like normal Pitch to me.

Aaaand that's all I've got for Page 2. Moving on...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I agree with basically everything Lottie says in #83.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I agree, that would indeed be a good place for baddies to hide. I still think Steve seems suspicious, though.

I may have just missed it, but could you say why?

Originally Posted by Legate

Rather the later. If I wanted to be honest, I would say I *am* suspicious of him now: however, there is little of what one would call "wolfiness" about him. I mean, he is not manipulating people or stuff like that, he is just totally weird. Now, with his last post in which he basically did nothing but quoted me, he did not still answer my question - even though he tried, apparently! He answered with the very same thing we all know already and which he had said already four times over. We know what you meant by saying that acolyte discussion blah blah, Zil, but all I wanted to hear is why you had been proposing focusing instead of debating the Acolyte on catching Wolves, yet failed to lead by example, or if not lead, then at least try! I wonder which part of that have I not made clear enough...

Well... in Inzil's post here -

Originally Posted by Inzil

All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.

- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?

Boro's several recent posts - they give off an interesting "sure, suspect me for that, okay, whatever" vibe (regarding Legate saying Boro's being too nice for normal-Boro.) Sidenote - you've seen Boro in a game with Phantom before, right? He's basically a lapdog!

Anyway, that doesn't really bother me, except that I've done the same thing when I was a wolf in hopes that whatever "reason" I was ignoring would just go away.

Bom at #94... -shakes head- There's really nothing more irritating than people that do this. But I won't harp.

Also, Inzil at #96 - all the talk about you apparently not just posting "empty posts" and you post something like this? Man...

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Ironically, I'm really not liking the look of Inzil now. I didn't find his play suspicious before, just very weird, but now, not only has he not even attempted to explain his actions, he's tried to claim I'm suspicious for pointing them out.

He's explained himself twice. I find it interesting that you missed both instances, and I find it even more interesting that you're finding Inzil this suspicious right after A) he starts getting votes (Rikae's in particular) and B) he votes for you.


And that's me caught up, looks like. I'll have a post on what all this actually makes me think in a moment.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Leaning Very Innocent:
Shasta - Duh.

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

Rikae - I debated with myself for a bit before putting her here, instead of "No read", because she has been posting. It may be that her posts stick out less in my mind because they aren't gigantic walls of text; everything she's said thus far looks fairly ship-shape. I don't know that I agree with her vote, but she hasn't said anything that's made me think her overtly suspicious.

Pitch - Nothing Pitch has done today has really set off any alarm bells for me. Even though he's said a fair bit today, he almost went under the radar for me because I just remember him saying a fair bit without actually remembering much of the content - except when he argued a bit with Nogrod. I remember concentrating on that part especially.

Lottie - Like Boro, has been taking some heat from other people I find more suspicious. She's also said quite a bit that I happen to agree with. I don't find her suspicious at the moment.

Leaning Worse than Innocent, Better than Guilty:
Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.

Greenie - Not a lot here to go on, but more than anyone in the "Not Leaning at All" category. I don't really agree with her vote.

Inzil - I'm not certain that he's an innocent. That said, there are some indicators that he was the target of a witchhunt today, for good or ill (I'm leaning ill, myself.)

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

Legate - The apparent leader of what has looked to me like a witchhunt on Inzil. Apparently missed it the first time Inzil explained himself, and hasn't posted since he explained it the second time. Still, the fact that he mentioned in the beginning that what he was saying wasn't a point against Inzil, and didn't change his mind until a fair number of people seemed to share his ideas, looks bad to me.

Not Leaning at All:
Sally
Pomegranate
Eruhen
Bom


I will likely end up voting someone in the "Guilty" category today.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.

What's odd about the timing? It's when I woke up to find that Zil had started a poorly-reasoned accusation of me.

[Nogrod]

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

There are four posts by him.

In first (#22) he agrees with G55 (and all others) about the Acolyte discussion.

In the second one (#56) he says Rikae and G55 look innocentish, with no explanation whatsoever (well, he adds as a kind of softening that he finds G55 always innocent and wonders why is that). Then he does what I'd describe as piling onto the Leg/Zil -controversy saying that's the thing he finds interesting, though he will not himself have time to look at it.

In his third post (#64) he dislikes Greenie's vote but backtracks immediately saying he will not vote for Greenie as she will not be around to explain anymore.

Then he votes himself (#94) because "I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched".


The only problem I have with all this (and why I'm only half-serious) is that I'm afraid an innocent Bom could play just like this as well. And there are some I think we have some reasons to believe are not having our best in mind anyway. Heh, and I'm not so sure anymorfe why I used such a long time into this rant which begins with let's lynch Bom and then ends up with, well, maybe let's not...

Well, a fair 1½ hours until the DL. I'll try to make sense of a few things (Lommy-suspicion and Inzil's behaviour at least).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Last game was Pomegranate's first, as far as WW here, although I believe she said she was familiar with the premise of the game. Anyway, she definitely was in the "impressed me" group...oh maybe I shouldn't say that...makes me too nice still.

Was not one of the frequent posters, but when she did it was always stocked to the brim with insight and good observations. Ahh, again, I really need to stop this complimenting thing...eh whatever, it's the truth.

Well, now you are jokingly putting yourself in the role of the one who is "made being nice", yet still doing the stuff, what am I supposed to make out of that? Are you trying to stick to it in order not to be ? I mean, I prefer civilized discussion to violent outbursts, but in a way it would make me much more comfortable if you'd, as we say in Khand, "show some guts, man..."

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Legate, I didn't have to "lead by example" to move things away from the Acolyte: it happened on its own, and people started reacting to the two of us instead. I really didn't see it as all that complex.

All right. But I sincerely doubt that was your original plan. Also, I recall you having this cryptic line "so it serves also different purpose, interesting..." or something along these lines, it implied that you were surprised (or so it seemed to me) by that it stirred something else. Anyway, okay, if that was the point - however now of course I have to start wondering if this is not just secondary explanation of your behavior which you made up later (whereas of course then I'd have to ask myself what purpose did you originally have). All right all right, I think I could put this matter at rest finally, next time I'd like more clarity in your actions, though.

Originally Posted by Zil

I've played one game with Pom/Nate, and she was innocent then. She proved herself to be a sharp player indeed.

That said, it's funny how the one post from her thus far was such a parroting of suspicion on someone who already has a vote.

This sounds a bit like Boro now, but whatever...

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

*sigh* Well, I'd say that I'm off for a bit and will return before bed with a vote, but I know how this works. I'm going to get caught up in whatever else I end up doing and forget to vote.

So. I've still got no suspicions great enough to act on, and I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched.

++Bom Tombadillo

I think Nogrod had just said the same thing I thought when I saw this vote - now whoever it was who had been criticising the "unnecessary" elaborations of mine and Nog's about the random votes, THIS is exactly the case. Okay, the vote is not "random" in its typical sense - but it is irresponsible, which is the point both me and Nog have raised in our posts very strongly. Okay, maybe it is responsible in the sense that Bom does not want to do "random harm", so he chooses himself instead. But still, it would have been far better if he could choose at least some "top" suspect. I mean, it's Day 1.

But it's also Bom and somehow I can accept this behavior from him. I would however strongly discourage this incident to repeat, especially not on further Day than Day 1...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

During the Day I decided whom I'm not voting for. I don't know who I will vote for. Between Lommy and Boro (both of which, coincidentally, have votes) I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.

Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to save Boro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?

Well possibly I did not see or understand that when he had said it last time - you understand what my point was, do you? My point was that I wanted him to answer why he proposed something yet failed to act on it. It was not suspicious behavior, it only bothered me because it did not make any sense. What I saw was this: You preach something but you don't act upon it, somebody points it out to you, yet you reply again with preaching and doing nothing, and not even reply about why you don't do anything. That fact - not answering - was the grain of the only suspicious thing I had found in the whole affair. Suspicious is when you start making up fake explanations of your actions or (as it had seemed to me in this case) avoiding giving explanations for them at all. That's in short the whole "case".

For now (see above) I take Inzil's explanation now that he had stated himself clearly, however, I still don't trust him completely as I am not sure whether it isn't just a post-made-explanation (see above again), but right now I am putting the thing more in the "odd" shelf than into "wolf" shelf, but I might still be watching him.

Okay - and that's it. So I think I will vote pretty close to DL, because exactly around DL I have to leave; but I will certainly hang around now, generally...

EDIT: x-ed after Nog's last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Two more things. Sally looks actually rather fine to me now, and while I am slightly suspicious of Lommy, I would not want to lynch her toDay. Also, now looking at the tally, I seem to have missed Eruhen's vote and his reasoning for it. Need to check back.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Two more things. Sally looks actually rather fine to me now, and while I am slightly suspicious of Lommy, I would not want to lynch her toDay. Also, now looking at the tally, I seem to have missed Eruhen's vote and his reasoning for it. Need to check back.

Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

Yes, I just saw it, so now I understand why I haven't noticed it, since there is no explanation at all. I wouldn't mind that vote if it wasn't a part of this (currently biggest) bandwaggon.

I don't want to vote you now because I have better subjects to vote. I suspect you only a little, I said. Putting aside the reasons like that it won't be nice to vote you out since it's your first game after a while (and recalling stuff like last time Sally was lynched on her deathday etc), I maybe also wouldn't mind that much if the bandwagon for you did not look (especially with this random Eruhen voting) like some "save private Boro" attempt. Namely Boro would be one of these more likely candidates for voting (or in fact, THE candidate - I think I am going to vote him, not sure if there's anybody else, if I don't count Eruhen now or something, but then I'd like to hear his explanation etc first...)

[Thinlómien]

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it's not just something like "because it's your first game in a while" (as if I couldn't join the next one) or "because it's your birthday (as if I cared)...

edit: xed with Nog

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Zil

Care to elaborate?

See my list (if you already didn't).

Public note to self (previously titled "not to self" due to a typo )
Nogrod looks slightly worse.
Boro looks slightly better.
Eönwë looks the same.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

That's true. Still I am not sure if I wouldn't rather use the fact that I actually have a decent enough suspect on Day 1 and vote for that one... also in order to make things clearer. Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).

But yes... it has some merit, because again, when, if not toDay? Hm, I have to think about this...

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

[Nogrod]

Okay. It was a second post I wrote on Zil - and a second time I had to decide I will not post it (for a slightly different reason this time). You make me mad Inzil! And I kind of wish to join Rikae in checking your bluff.


So Lommy "stretches points", uses the word "weird" too often and "defends Pitch" (which is then corrected as a misunderstanding)? Her guilt seems only too obvious...

I mean really?

So Eruhen's vote looks like bandwagoning in major scale and G55's a possible one. Actually, I found an interesting point from back there

Originally Posted by G55

The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree.

That is said after she speculates whether Lottie or Boro might be wolves. Finally she decides to vote Lommy

Originally Posted by G55

I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.

So with the content "there has been some talk about" but which she is not opening up in any way...

I might be getting second thoughts about the sincerity of her outburst back there as this looks much like a wolf in trouble trying to find someone to vote.