Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

He is like a noble version of Gollum. We pity that wretched creature, with Slinker pulling on one side of his mind and Stinker on another. But Turin is, in a way, quite similar. He doesn't wear a loincloth and isn't skin-and-bones and doesn't feed on raw fishes. And he doesn't have the Ring gnawing at him. But he has other things, like the curse. And the greatest similarity is how they both carry guilt in their concience; they remember things that they are trying to forget.

There is a closer similarity between the two, I think, in that both made the choices they did because of innate characteristics. The Ring called to Gollum so acutely because it recognised in him a kindred spirit. Gollum's basic personality was against him, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility for his own choices, such as killing Déagol so easily.

Likewise, Túrin being so much like his mother personality-wise probably made things harder for him, but still one would think that with all the advantages he had, such as the fostering in Doriath and having the benefit the wisdom of Thingol and Melian, he could have learned some patience or humility.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ah, but he tried that, didn't he? He was trying to be as much of a threat to Morgoth as he could, and he tried to "make it right this time". But he always failed, time and again, whether it was by power of the curse or his own actions. I think that when he died, everyone was relieved. He said himself that he casts a shadow wherever he goes, but, sadly, his solution is not to distance himself from others to avoid helping Morgoth, but rather to assume a fake identity.

Yet even when he hid the name of Túrin, he clung to Gurthang, the one item which above all others would identify him. Why? Was it an internal rebellion against hiding his true identity? Was he too proud to let go of his past life completely, though he was also too proud to return to Doriath where he could openly be the son of Húrin Thalion?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And that made me think of an interesting thing. In Nargothrond and in Brethil the people knew who he really was, but they kept quiet about it. Was it just because they respected Turin, or maybe were afraid of his anger?

Probably both, in Nargothrond. With Brethil, it was likely more of a courtesy.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yet even when he hid the name of Túrin, he clung to Gurthang, the one item which above all others would identify him. Why? Was it an internal rebellion against hiding his true identity? Was he too proud to let go of his past life completely, though he was also too proud to return to Doriath where he could openly be the son of Húrin Thalion?

Well, he could definitely use some humility. But there are other answers as well. Turin - always, and blindly - preffered brute strength to secrecy. Why cast away the strongest weapon he has, in return for being yet another homeless vagabond? It didn't make sense to him. And whenever he tries doing exactly that, he still rises to the top of society - among the Outlaws, in Nargothrond, and at Brethil, he tries to blend in with the crowd, but his pride, ambition, thirst to avenge himself and his family etc (you name it) always brings him to a visible spot.

The funny thing is that as treacherous as that sword is, it proved to be the most "loyal" of Turin's possessions, and the closest one to him. (this was mentioned in this thread, posts #32, #33, and #37). To summarise: they use "thee" and "thou" in their final dialogue. These are familiar pronouns. They underline the deeper connection Turin has with the sword and their brotherhood. They are also connected by their shared death.

The whole issue with pride also brings the question of how Turin felt when he sneaked up to Glaurung to stab him. I can see him saying one thing to himself over and over again: kill Glaurung at any cost! And that cost was pride. He did not come up openly to the dragon and challenge him to a duel. Did he learn that in open combat he has no chance? But that's his honour, his pride! In my opinion, giving up those virtues for the sake of victory was a bigger deal for him than a scorched hand.

How true then are Glaurung's words, then?

"And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin!"

Well, of course they are true, but what I mean is how much does Glaurung really slander Turin? All he did is take the consequences without taking all the build-up into account. It's easy to agree with Glaurung, and well, he's right. But he, like always, adds a bit of lie to the truth to serve his purpose. Or, rather, adds a bit of truth to the lie. He only says why Turin was wrong in doing what he did. He does not give the "other options", so to speak.

Also, Glaurung seems to be a physical representation of the Curse. Not only does he choose Hin Hurin out of all the inhabitants of Beleriand to pursue, but also how he twists the truth into half-lies. Morgoth "showed" Hurin a tampered version of what happened to his family. And Glaurung gives "tampered truths"... if that makes ny sense.


I never said that Turin's actions are necessarily right, of the best choices. But I am still sympathetic towards him.


I forgot to put "Wildman of the Woods" in my list of names, I'll edit it in.