Magic in Middle-earth

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

I've been thinking (never a good thing! ) about the difference between modern fantasy epics and Lord of the Rings, and one thing that really stuck out in my mind was their different approaches to magic. Whereas most modern fantasies are so chock-full of magic it's hard to breathe, Tolkien is much more subtle in his magic usage. The only things I could think about that were "magical" were the Rings of Power, and the Istari.

Well, we came up with many occurences of magic.

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Then I got to thinking about Lúthien, and the way she used magic in helping Beren steal the Silmaril from Morgoth, including rescuing him from Sauron. Now I am confused. What role does magic play in Middle-earth? Obviously it can be wielded by semi-divine beings (like the Maia, and the Istari), and contained in an object to be wielded by those who control it (like Lúthien and her suit, and Frodo and the Ring), but what else? Is it the object or the person that has the magic?

(Underlining mine)

What role does magic play in Middle-earth? - it's just there. It doesn't come out of the blue to help a certain being accomplish something; it's just, erm, not being used at certain times, if you'll forgive this rough terminology.

Is it the object or the person that has the magic? - I'd say both. However, some objects could be said to be simply advanced technology, things refined by deep knowledge and superb skill of the maker.


The Rings of Power confuse me. They require all three things above: the magic (or should I say inner power/will/abilities?) of the wielder, great skill, and their own magic.

It's late and I need to sleep. Someone help me with this please.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What role does magic play in Middle-earth? - it's just there. It doesn't come out of the blue to help a certain being accomplish something; it's just, erm, not being used at certain times, if you'll forgive this rough terminology.

Sometimes it doesn't hurt to go to the dictionary.

1. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces
2. mysterious tricks, such as making things disappear and appear again, performed as entertainment.
3. a quality that makes something seem removed from everyday life, esp. in a way that gives delight
4. informal something that has such a quality

I think we are talking about the first definition, though Tolkien's works can create the third and fourth in the reading.

The first definition has to be qualified, though, in that those who wield magic in Middle Earth might not consider it mysterious, and would consider it natural. The above definition 1 was written for mundane reality, where any magic that might exist is mysterious or supernatural. It applies well enough to Earth, more awkwardly to Middle Earth.

There is a trite phrase 'mind over matter' which might be applied. One might say magic is use of the mind to sense or manipulate matter without use of the body's tools of hands, muscle and the like, or to extend the senses beyond normal.

I have great faith in everyone's ability to nitpick the above. For example, by this definition a magnifying glass might extend the senses and thus fit the description of magical. However, that's a start.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Is it the object or the person that has the magic? - I'd say both. However, some objects could be said to be simply advanced technology, things refined by deep knowledge and superb skill of the maker.

We have already mentioned cases where the magic seems clearly in the object... the west gate of Moria and the palantír. Still, even then, an outsider directs and activates the magic, through a word in the case of the gate, or by gazing into the palantír. The phial of Galadriel might be another example of an item with specific purpose that might be triggered by an individual with no special talents or abilities.

In principle, one might then say that much other magic comes from the individual. Maybe so, but...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Rings of Power confuse me. They require all three things above: the magic (or should I say inner power/will/abilities?) of the wielder, great skill, and their own magic.

Many of the examples of magic are centered on Gandalf. He wields not only a ring, but also a staff. I interpret both Gandalf's ring and staff as very general purpose tools that focus, shape, amplify (or choose another word) the 'inner power/will/abilities' of their wielder. As such, a staff or ring might be considered different from the gate or palantír. Anyone speaking the correct word might open the gate. Even a hobbit could trigger operation of a palantír.

How many examples do we have of magic without an amplifying artifact? Aragorn can heal with athelas. Is the power in Aragorn, in the athelas, or both? Does Aragorn amplify the athelas or does athelas amplify Aragorn?

I can recall Aragorn making three prophecies, that Theoden would return to Edoras, that Gandalf should beware Moria, and that he and Eomer would draw swords together after they parted after Helm's Deep. While Aragorn was carrying Andúril while he made all three prophecies, I have no real reason to think there was any item amplifying his ability to prophecy.

I'd be interested if people could give a few other examples of magic being wielded by individuals with no amplifying devices such as a ring, staff or leaf. I'd like to think magic can be used without such props. Finding examples is a problem, though.

Many of the items mentioned above such as the gate, staffs, rings, phial and palantír were presumably created by someone or other. All such making takes place off stage. The impression I have is that some of the "inner power/will/abilities" of the creator of an item is pushed into the item. Someone might want to say a bit more about that.

I will add that to this point we have been focused primarily on the sort of magic that a wizard or elf lord might wield. There are other things happening. We might think of the oath sworn to Isildur at Erech, and his curse upon the oath breakers. We might ask if Aragorn, whose life was entangled in prophecy, had a fate or destiny that was supported by some form of magic. We might ask if speaking the name of a valar amplifies an oath, or might become something akin to prayer. We might talk of Beorn and other shape shifters. If we've mentioned Aragorn's healing and prophecy, what other people who are not elf lords, wizards or Nazgûl might have other similar abilities? Eowyn in slaying a fell beast also seemingly changed the weather. What is it that brought snow to Caradhras, or covered the land with darkness during the War of the Ring? Should we speak of that flock of crows that might have been looking for the Fellowship as they went south from Rivendell?

There is a good deal magic in the books. We might not want to focus too narrowly.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Many of the examples of magic are centered on Gandalf. He wields not only a ring, but also a staff. I interpret both Gandalf's ring and staff as very general purpose tools that focus, shape, amplify (or choose another word) the 'inner power/will/abilities' of their wielder. As such, a staff or ring might be considered different from the gate or palantír. Anyone speaking the correct word might open the gate. Even a hobbit could trigger operation of a palantír.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by blantyr

How many examples do we have of magic without an amplifying artifact?

Elves communicating telepathically. Making prophecies.

I'm not sure if doing magic through music could fit under this - music is kind of a magnifying artifact.

Many ainur have some magical "special powers" in addition to their power (for example, Vana's gaze makes flower bloom).


A similar question would be about objects that are magical without anyone having to trigger the magic. Silmarilli? They shine all the time. Gondolin swords that glow in the presence of enemies? You need the enemies, true, but the sword doesn't have to be held or anything like that.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Aragorn can heal with athelas. Is the power in Aragorn, in the athelas, or both? Does Aragorn amplify the athelas or does athelas amplify Aragorn?

Athelas doesn't work that way in any other preson's hands. Likewise, Aragorn was only able to heal Faramir with the help of Athelas.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Many of the items mentioned above such as the gate, staffs, rings, phial and palantír were presumably created by someone or other. All such making takes place off stage. The impression I have is that some of the "inner power/will/abilities" of the creator of an item is pushed into the item. Someone might want to say a bit more about that.

What about Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw? Nimrodel (the river)?

However, I absolutely agree with what you said. Melian says about Anglachel, "The heart of the smith still dwells in it" - something that's applicable to many other items.

Originally Posted by blantyr

We might ask if speaking the name of a valar amplifies an oath, or might become something akin to prayer.

I think that names of people and things carry the spirit of those people. When you say a Vala's name, it's as if you bring their presence. Examples:

-Frodo's shout "Elbereth Gilthoniel" scares the Nazgul on Weathertop from immediate actions

-Gondorians avoid naming Sauron and Mordor

-The name "Bombadil" brings courage to Frodo in the Barrow

Originally Posted by blantyr

Eowyn in slaying a fell beast also seemingly changed the weather.

I'd say that the weather changes because of the overall victory, not only Eowyn's over the Wi-Ki. The weather changes according to the events, but the events don't change the weather.

Originally Posted by blantyr

What is it that brought snow to Caradhras, or covered the land with darkness during the War of the Ring?

I can only speculate about the first, but we know the second - Sauron woke up his volcano.

Originally Posted by blantyr

There is a good deal magic in the books. We might not want to focus too narrowly.

I second that.



I'm beginning to doubt my words that ME is filled with magic. The more I think about it, the less magical everything appears. From the perspective of a hobbit, Elves could be magical simply for having long hair. From the perspective of Elves the Valar are magical because of many things, and the ability to create something from nothing... well, the Imperishable Flame. And to the Valar, hobbits might seem magical, because they are able to enjoy the life that they have, which is very simple compared to the other nations/races (or, as Gandalf said, you can learn everything about them in a month, and they'll surprise you in a hundred years). But from every race's perspective, their abilities are not unusual. Elves/Valar/Numenorians/etc could consider the something radiating from them just traces of (high) birth, willpower, inner strength, nobility, toughness, wisdom, possibly some mighty ancestor...

Which means that there really is no magic. And when there is none, but it is felt, it's magical. So the magic is in the inexistence of magic?

headdesk.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Which means that there really is no magic. And when there is none, but it is felt, it's magical. So the magic is in the inexistence of magic?

headdesk.

No, now you're going too far the other way.

Thinking of all the examples I can–

There's occasional "proper" spell-casting, sometimes with incantations and the works; there's a sort of "techno-magic", or "crafting" magic; there's the ability to influence natural forces; and there's "psychic powers" such as foresight or telepathy. These all could be termed "magic" of sorts. Thing is, they all shade into each other quite a bit, and also into the realm of the mundane, so that much of the time it's not clear exactly what you're seeing (if anything).

And no, I don't think that's just Tolkien being sloppy– it's just that, unlike many modern fantasy authors, he was neither drawing on RPG-ing experience, nor writing with one eye on the fanboy-market.

That sounds a bit catty, I know, but I'm not trying to knock current authors. It's just that people don't write in a vacuum, and authors in the present day have learnt that fans tend to expect them to set out strict rules about who can use what power how many times a day, and rank all magic-users (or whatever) in relation to each other, etc, etc.

[Galadriel55]

Nerwen, I wish my computer would let me rep you.

[blantyr]

It might be useful to bring in the concepts of fëa and hröa, roughly 'soul' and 'body'. It might be possible to say that magic is the soul manipulating or sensing the world directly rather than through the body.

Not all souls would be created equal. From the valar to the dúnedain there might be a gradation of souls that can to a greater to lesser extent manipulate the world. Maia can do more than noldor who can do more than sylvan, etc… Perhaps ordinary humans, dwarves, orcs or other creatures have some ability as well, but not all that much.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Thinking of all the examples I can–

There's occasional "proper" spell-casting, sometimes with incantations and the works; there's a sort of "techno-magic", or "crafting" magic; there's the ability to influence natural forces; and there's "psychic powers" such as foresight or telepathy. These all could be termed "magic" of sorts. Thing is, they all shade into each other quite a bit, and also into the realm of the mundane, so that much of the time it's not clear exactly what you're seeing (if anything).

And no, I don't think that's just Tolkien being sloppy– it's just that, unlike many modern fantasy authors, he was neither drawing on RPG-ing experience, nor writing with one eye on the fanboy-market.

I'm not sure Tolkien was all that sloppy. There may be broad patterns. They are just more complicated than some modern writers use.

If rings and staves are general purpose tools, while palantír and Moria's west gate were dedicated to specific tasks, we might distinguish users of magic in the same way. Gandalf has a wide variety of abilities, using "proper spell casting" while Aragorn's healing and prophecy are more narrow and dedicated. Aragorn doesn't use "incantations and the works". I'm not sure I like the phrase 'psychic powers'. That is more a science fiction phrase than fantasy. Still, James Schmitz in one of his Telzey Amberdon books distinguished between the Type One Psi with a wide variety of abilities and the Type Two Psi with one or two narrow abilities. We might have a similar distinction here, that people like Tom Bombadil, Gandalf and Lúthien are far more versatile than Aragorn.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm not sure if doing magic through music could fit under this - music is kind of a magnifying artifact.

Music might be considered similar to incantations or gestures, part of "the works," another tool that people like Tom Bombadil or Lúthien use to shape their abilities. The specialist people with narrowly focused abilities would be less likely to use such techniques.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

A similar question would be about objects that are magical without anyone having to trigger the magic. Silmarilli? They shine all the time. Gondolin swords that glow in the presence of enemies? You need the enemies, true, but the sword doesn't have to be held or anything like that.

Agreed. Not all crafted items require someone to wield or activate them, though many do…

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Athelas doesn't work that way in any other preson's hands. Likewise, Aragorn was only able to heal Faramir with the help of Athelas.

Hmm… It would seem both Aragorn and athelas need each other to work fully?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What about Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw? Nimrodel (the river)?

However, I absolutely agree with what you said. Melian says about Anglachel, "The heart of the smith still dwells in it" - something that's applicable to many other items.

Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw might be considered crafted items. Most enchanted items seem to be made by elves. I have the impression that dwarves in the old days could also project parts of their souls into things of their making. Would the blades the hobbits acquired on the Barrow Downs be made the same way? Might the dúnedain be able to craft artifacts using essentially the same techniques as the elves?

I heard a different tale of Nimrodel. There was an article in Tolkiengateway that claims elves can reject the call of Mandos, that they can choose to become ghosts. If fëa and hröa are parted through death, the fëa can linger where it lived. If putting on the Ring allowed Frodo to see into the realm of spirits, might he have put it on and seen Nimrodel?

I'm not claiming the above conjecture as canon, but it seems to fit.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that names of people and things carry the spirit of those people. When you say a Vala's name, it's as if you bring their presence. Examples:

-Frodo's shout "Elbereth Gilthoniel" scares the Nazgul on Weathertop from immediate actions

-Gondorians avoid naming Sauron and Mordor

-The name "Bombadil" brings courage to Frodo in the Barrow

Agreed. I note that the examples you give involve mighty names. I don't know that this sort of naming would work for beings less than Valar or Maia. Still, naming names might bring benefit, might work as something vaguely like prayer.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'd say that the weather changes because of the overall victory, not only Eowyn's over the Wi-Ki. The weather changes according to the events, but the events don't change the weather.

I can only speculate about the first, but we know the second - Sauron woke up his volcano.

I'm not entirely confident I understand the weather either. In part, it might respond to the will of the mighty. I have imagined the wind from the west that blew back the smoke of Mount Doom prior to the Pelennor battle might have involved a contest of wills between Sauron and the Valar. In part, the weather might act vaguely like the crowd at a sporting event, changing to reflect events going on down below.

The storm at Caradhras? I had another thought, a wild conjecture. The mountain apparently long had a reputation for cruelty. It is as if some malicious spirit dwelled within the mountain. A balrog for instance? I have also thought that Saruman might have wanted the Fellowship to try to pass the Gap of Rohan. I really don't know.