Why did Legolas set sail for the Grey Havens only after Aragorn's death?

[SlverGlass]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I think Legolas must have had a fairly healthy pre-Bloom fanbase, Galadriel55. He was certainly my favourite character at my first reading as a rather serious, self-important and chivalric little boy...

The reasons why, for reasons that rationally must be coincidental but certainly don't feel that way, were all extirpated from or altered in the films.

Obviously I always thought Elves were cool but for me this controversial passage picked out Legolas in particular:



and yes, I did interpret that as dark hair (not an unbiassed reader though). Then he only went and shot the blimming Nazgul steed. One of the finest moments of action Tolkien ever wrote I think; for a believer in the old heroic combats, he's always surprisingly excellent at archery moments; no Homeric contemner of Paris the archer he. I actually have a theory that shooting suits novelists much better than hand-to-hand fighting. An arrow going through the air, subject to aim, wind, accident, is a sort of perfect image of suspense. Tolstoy's duels are much more exciting, short-lasting, awe-inspiring than the stylish fiddling around of Dumas's rapiers. Anyway. This feat of archery was cut from the film, as far as I can see because the director thought the action might spoil the vibe of his soporific Enya-larded drift down the Anduin.

Legolas's next fine moment was his contribution to the Lament of the Winds. I've always loved that, though I understand why few songs made it cinematically. Still, sad.

And now, to at last reach the ostensible topic of this thread, how about the wonderful verse of Galadriel's warning?

"Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more."

I seem to recall Legolas takes this as a warning that he is likely to be killed. Remember that on first reading you have next to no idea about the rules of the game re: Elves and the Sea, just indistinct feelings of elegy, often at an age before you know about anything else elegiac. I wouldn't be surprised if it was here (or maybe in some war at Troy retelling, but close enough) that I got the impression it was in some sense good to die, noble to be resigned to fate and defeat. I can see in the film this would have been complex: a prophecy about a peripheral character that doesn't even come true in any obvious clunking way (as no true prophecy should). But complex is beautiful, and I really resent that there was no reference to Legolas and the gulls in the film at all, except a nod in that admittedly lovely glimpse of Elves going seaward in FOTR: EE.

I think Tolkien's last footnotes about Legolas are a way of reconciling this sense of elegy (about which there is SO much good, short Ang-Sax poetry) with Gimli's more upbeat spirit, of wagers, promises to visit Aglarond, grim irony. Of course there are times when the buskin is on the other foot: Gimli has his sentimental side too, and Legolas raises the spirits (not the Spirits) in the Paths of the Dead.

Another lovely, structurally purposeless aside is Legolas's recognition of Imrahil's elven heritage; Imrahil himself being a sort of incidental flourish of a character.

Finally, when Saruman warns "it will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts", I think of Legolas, going off at last to fulfil that prophecy, as much as or more than I do of the Ringbearers.

You make some very good and well thought out comments, Anguirel. As I mentioned before, the movies, though great they may be, didn't tug my heartstrings merely due to the alternation of the personality of the character. Among the elves, Legolas and Lord Elrond had always been a little closer to my heart. However, the movie took away the finer points that had made them so dear to me in the first place. Their characters became something different in the movies. Not necessarily bad, not they were certainly not the Legolas and Elrond whom I had grown to admire and even, respect.

Originally Posted by Folwren

SlverGlass, I always assumed Legolas waited to leave until Aragorn died because of his ties to him on account of their fellowship. I think that although Tolkien did not describe in very great depth the comradeship between Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli, it was still there to a great extent. They would not leave him when he wanted to go through the Paths of the Dead, and they ran long leagues with him to save Merry and Pippin, and they fought battles together. All these trials and hardships and adventures are bound to bring a trio together, and while they might not become friends like Legolas and Gimli were able to be friends, on account of Aragorn being their leader, they still loved him. So, I feel that it was the loyalty to Aragorn that kept him in ME that long.

I agree Folwren. You put forward some very good points. I had quite forgotten that not all emotions need direct physical manifestations to show itself. Thank you for refreshing my memory and thoughts.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Folwren, Probably the single finest argument for a dark Legolas, and the bow is pretty like kickass as well isn't it...reminds me, in a respectful manner of course, of that vaguely unintentionally homoerotic passage somewhere in the Prof's notes where he compares Legolas to "a young tree"...

The picture was beautiful. This was the first time that I came across it. Thanks Folwren. I must say that the Professor's comparison is dead on the mark, Anguirel. Not surprising, of course, as Legolas is his creation. Even as one of the Eldar, Legolas, according to me, came forward as an extremely flexible minded elf, who didn't backtrack in face of some new discovery and always remain open for knowledge. Thus, he 'grows', in mind and character, throughout the book and helps us to grow with him.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

As I said before, I have nothing against the book Legolas. In fact, he is one of my (many) favourite characters. He is likable, and sort of half-serious and Elvish at the same time.

My comment reffered to those who are nuts about Bloom-Legolas, who appear not to notice anyone else.

That was obvious, Galadriel. The fanatic craze about Bloom-Legolas is a little over the head. Or maybe a lot over the head.

Your phrase, 'Half-serious and Elvish at the same time', describes Legolas perfectly, Galadriel. For me, Legolas is and will remain the most 'human elf'.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

Your phrase, 'Half-serious and Elvish at the same time', describes Legolas perfectly, Galadriel. For me, Legolas is and will remain the most 'human elf'.

Thank you. I'd call him a "Hobbit-Elf", though.

[SlverGlass]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'd call him a "Hobbit-Elf", though.

Now that you mention it... There is, indeed, an innocence in Legolas, as seen in hobbits. Not to forget, his unusally simple way of perceiving things.

[Nolwë_Namiel]

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

Even as one of the Eldar, Legolas....

Sorry, Legolas was not one of the Eldar. The term Eldar is applied only to those elves who accepted the summons of the Valar and entered Aman, including Elwë Singollo.

Since his father and grandfather are both stated in the HOME to be Sindarin, he is at least half-Sindarin. As to the other half, the HOME also states that only a handful of Sindar went with Oropher and Thranduil and they soon merged with the Silvan elves. This would account for the possibility that Legolas' hair was indeed dark for all elves, except the Vanyar and Teleri, were dark-haired.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nolwë_Namiel

Sorry, Legolas was not one of the Eldar. The term Eldar is applied only to those elves who accepted the summons of the Valar and entered Aman, including Elwë Singollo.

But the term could also be applied to all Elves that went on the Great Journey, ncluding the Sindar.

Originally Posted by The Sil, Index

According to Elvish legend the name Eldar 'People of the Stars' was given to all Elves by the Vala Orome. It came however to be used to refer only to the Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri) who set out on the great westward march from Cuivienen (whether or not they remained in Middle Earth), and to exclude the Avari.

Silvan Elves are said to be those Teleri that dropped out of the Great Journey to the East of the Blue Mountains (or was it Misty Mountains?). I guess some Avari could have come to the settlements later on.

So either way, Legolas is at least part Eldar.

[Galin]

According to The Lord of the Rings (author-published of course) the Eldar are the Elves of Aman plus the Sindar only (and returning Noldor of course). The East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were not considered Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin (Appendix F).

However Legolas had Sindarin blood in any case. I know The Silmarillion says (a bit) differently, but I'm not sure Tolkien was paying full attention to what he had already published when he wrote that which Christopher Tolkien chose to put into the 1977 Silmarillion.

[LadyBrooke]

But even using the LotR's definition of Eldar, and not the Silm version, which would need to be clarified as to which version is used as some of use one and others the other, Legolas also proclaims himself a Silvan elf, not an Eldar. When entering Hollin, he says "the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk." No matter which book is used, somewhere there is evidence that Legolas was not one of the Eldar. In Letters, Tolkien states that he is one of the Woodelves. I fail to see the evidence that Legolas is an Eldar, to contradict the clearly stated, by Legolas himself, idea the Legolas is one of the Silvan elves.

And part Eldar does not count as Eldar. For example, Finrod is part Vanyar and Teleri, so can we proclaim him to be Vanyar or Teleri in spite of it being stated he is one of the Noldor?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

But even using the LotR's definition of Eldar, and not the Silm version, which would need to be clarified as to which version is used as some of use one and others the other, Legolas also proclaims himself a Silvan elf, not an Eldar. When entering Hollin, he says "the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk."

I don't think that would necessarily be a point against Legolas being Sindarin.
Since silvan is not capitalised there, I could see that as Legolas speaking not as a Silvan Elf, but rather a silvan (wood-dwelling) elf to whom the culture of the Noldor was alien.

[Galin]

Culturally I would say Legolas is one of the Tawarwaith or Wood-elves, but according to one description, the remigrant Sindar might have brought at least some measure of West-elven culture with them too. A late text (Unfinished Tales) generally notes that these Silvan Teleri had become a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari, but that under Sindarin leadership they 'became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom,' and some learned writing from the Sindar.

This at least seems (to me anyway) to imply that they brought some Beleriandic culture into play, noting the history of Galadriel and Celeborn relates that the Silvan Elves of Lorien became subject to 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture. Legolas, as the son of a Sinda, was the son of an Elda... by blood he might be fully Sindarin, or not. But what does blood mean regarding this question?


However another late text in Unfinished Tales notes Oropher and folk: 'wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.'

As I said above, however Legolas had Sindarin blood (at least in part) in any case, but admittedly I'm not really sure what that alone might mean as far as being accounted an Elda or not -- in The Lord of the Rings the Eldar are the West-elves while the Silvans of Lorien and Mirkwood are the East-elves -- and in my opinion Legolas did not himself live in Beleriand at least, about as West as one could go without sailing to Aman.


It's possible (though I've no text to support it) that the 'definition' of Eldar Tolkien later wrote about (taken up into The Silmarillion by CJRT) was yet another internal distinction: meaning Eldar first referred to all Elves (Peoples of the Stars), then to the West-elves, then later to the Marchers (Eldor), whether or not they had reached Beleriand.

I'm not sure Tolkien saw the latter idea as an internal addition to the use or application of Eldar (rather than forgetting what he had actually published already), but the term seems to have changed a bit internally in any case.

Erm, what was the question again!