Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

INNOCENT: (to INNOCENT 2 and WOLF): You two are guilty.

INNOCENT 2: Take that back now, wolf!

WOLF: (flicking ash off end of cigarette holder) Whatever, cobbler.

Originally Posted by Loslote

But I do think you're a cobbler. You're attracting too much attention for me to call you a wolf. Under normal circumstances, yeah, I'd point fingers and call wolf, but in this game, there are just as many cobblers as wolves. It's just as likely that you would be one as it is likely that you would be the other.

Okay. The village is getting smaller, and I'm pretty confident we're down at least one cobbler (Nogrod). Two if BG was evil, or if Fea or any more of the lynchees was one. Whereas it seems very unlikely we've sent more than one wolf to Mandos yet. So... is it really Cobbler-hunting time?

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

And I haven't poked at you, phanty, because I honestly don't think you're that much of a threat. My gut tells me you're fishy, but you've been mostly helpful (if very vocal; but I'm sensing that's typical), though half of the helpfulness seems to be agreeing with Boro (who is on my "Sensible" list, by the by). Also, the fishy-gut-feelings don't point to wolfishness, just general muck-up-the-works-but-still-be-helpful-enough-to-be-ignored cobblery.

What I said to Lottie.

Originally Posted by Elra

I can't see how I've been "prominent in helping kill" anyone except Lommy. Who I did think was off. From Day one, if you recall. If you're referring to my calling Lommy an enigma, that's because there are always things about her that I can't pin down.

Yes, I know, you said this:

Originally Posted by Elra

Glad the Lommy-enigma (she always is, to me) is gone, yes.

But that sounds rather like you just lynched her on general principles.

Originally Posted by Elra

Mith is currently on my radar, mostly because I can't get a read on her yet. Which is puzzling.

Really? I think Mith is about the most innocent-looking person in the village at the moment.

Originally Posted by Elra

Yes, there are wolves. For all we know, they could be the quiet, busy-in-real-life ones.

So... you're not going to bother looking?

Originally Posted by Elra

I think Boro's recent method (in conjunction with the original plan...Agan's, wasn't it? I got a bit lost that Day) is a good one. I'm really not sure why anyone is reluctant on this. Don't we want to know about the Dead before we die ourselves? .

Yes, but the problem is that if the, er, Evil Dead manage to derail it– or even if there's simply a screw-up– we would be basing our suspicions on wrong information. So it's actually quite a gamble. On the other hand, it is frustrating to be left in the dark as we are now, and in fact we are quite handicapped by having no wolvish connections to trace. But Boro's breathless enthusiasm for the whole thing is starting to worry me.

EDIT:X'd with Moddess.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay. The village is getting smaller, and I'm pretty confident we're down at least one cobbler (Nogrod). Two if BG was evil, or if Fea or any more of the lynchees was one. Whereas it seems very unlikely we've sent more than one wolf to Mandos yet. So... is it really Cobbler-hunting time?

There's a difference between actively looking for Cobblers (as opposed to wolves) and drawing a conclusion about a particular person, though. Ang jumped out at me (both in the attention-grabbing way and the attacking way ), so I looked at him. Now that I think he's a Cobbler, I'll hardly be pressing for his lynch.

Elron-Hubbard confuses me. On the one hand, she looks like a semi-newbie who's probably innocent. On the other hand, she seems awfully concerned with how she looks:

Okay, that's all for my self-defense. (That sort of thing never ends well.)

As well as a very conciliatory tone. But, all things considered, I'd say it's probably just newbieishness.

[Mithalwen]

Oh what is going on here?

Ang is suspicious because after a long absence he makes a long post? You are saying it would be better if he flipped in and made some anodyne comment and offsodded? With Greenie doing her cat thing (wall staring) I would be quite grateful if you don't lynch the only person on my continent who speaks. It is possible that the wolves felt I was the most innocent person left too in which case I might not be around longer. At least can you find some better reason than he wrote a long post that didn't toe the party line?

I'm on the radar because someone can't get a handle on me? Well sweetie that is your problem not mine. I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.

Are there only cobblers in this village? ..really communicationg with the dead is fine but we can't lynch retrospectively. If we want to win we can't rely on this - we don't have the time and it is the living wolves we have to find.

YEah I know I am grouchy I have just woken up on sofa to see someone explaining (by ripping one apart) what part of a slug is good to eat. I didn't need to see that. Off to bed for a bit.

Completely off topic and useless - but Nerwen, I am sure I am not alone in holding your nation in my thought at the moment as yet another natural disaster threatens. Hope you and yours are ok.

[Mithalwen]

Ok..... more tech problems or just quiet? Hmm.

[elronds_daughter]

I think just quiet. It's an ungodly hour on the US East Coast.

Mith, "on my radar" means "shall be looking at more closely now." Doesn't mean I think you're a wolf. Just means I'm going to be trying to understand you better.

Right, well, off to Wednesday. Ick. I shan't be around for another nine hours or so, but I'll try to be talkative when I get back.

[Nerwen]

Mith– thanks for your kind words. And my immediate circle are fine.

This amuses me quite a lot:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I'm on the radar because someone can't get a handle on me? Well sweetie that is your problem not mine. I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Hardly going to take that on trust from you right now, am I? Have a care, Loslote; you're creating exactly the form of alliance that was the glue missing from my case. Give some solid examples, if you like, of what you mean by this. I note only right now that Glirdan is playing well, helpful, articulate and vigilant, and that makes me want to be very cautious. I have much solider feelings about you.

And - "sally is her usual cupcakey self"? Come, what colourless piffle. I gather that sally is for some reason known as a cupcake, but I really don't see how that has a bearing on her guilt or innocence.

Anguirel– what Lottie says about Glirdan is true: he tends to make a pretty obvious wolf. But then, her argument here amounts to, "he's not actually holding up a sign saying, 'Wolf! Lynch me!' so he must be innocent!" And then Sally– well, again, she does quite often follow a hunch that someone's evil, and sticks to it regardless; however, she's posted so little this game that it's quite a stretch to say she's "her usual self" (cupcakey or otherwise).

And having said that, I think the post of Lottie's at least rules out the "triumvirate" of Lottie, Glirdan and Sally. I can't see a Wolflote rushing in to defend both her packmates as openly as that.

There's a difference between actively looking for Cobblers (as opposed to wolves) and drawing a conclusion about a particular person, though. Ang jumped out at me (both in the attention-grabbing way and the attacking way ), so I looked at him. Now that I think he's a Cobbler, I'll hardly be pressing for his lynch.

Lottie, I'm not of course saying Anguirel's above suspicion, but I don't believe you've given any reason yet for thinking he's a cobbler except a.) he suspects you and b.) he talks too much. How can you be so sure?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I have just found out that Ang didn't know the board was back and I had a blonde moment and didn't check when we were talking about other things this morning. My fault not his. Really incredibly stupid of me. So blame me for his absence not him.

[Glirdan]

Okay, so before I leave and finish getting read for work, I would like to make a few comment (oh, and forgive me if I tend not to make any sense right now as I'm still experiencing the side effect of my sleeping pills which happens to include groginess and head spinning and the feeling one gets after waking out of an anisthetic):

Originally Posted by Ang

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

This just doesn't seem right with me and has been bugging me since yesterday (as in the legit day lol). He's throwing all three of us in as Wolves just because, and doesn't really give any reasons why. Well, he gives his theories on Lottie. But he argues against there being a Sally Wolf and gives the shortes, and most very odd suspcions of me stating it could be Wolfish, when I had give a clear explanation that I though Wilwa inncoent due to meta-reasoning.

Okay, that's all I can really touch on right now as I'm pressing short for time and have to go to work. Be back on later.

EDIT: Xed with Mith. By the was Mith, not just him. Seems the Finns are still having troubles.

[Anguirel]

To my astonishment, this thing has just started working for me again. I'm going to vote now in case I can't later, technically or indeed in terms of willpower. My primary suspicion of Loslote remains unaltered.

Nerwen, you make a fair point...my initial, tentative triumvirate is indeed more probably wrong than right, as events have indicated. I think a two-sided alliance between Loslote and Glirdan is unlikely, as I intimated above in my Marlene Dietrich werewolf movie scene. How would Loslote have such full confidence in her defence of a useful ally? Yup, by knowing he's innocent because she's not. I know this is what I suggested about Glirdan himself and Wilwa earlier. This time it is much more valid; as Glirdan himself pointed out in his case I quite unsportingly made use of a sentiment that was semi-above-game.

Loslote, on the other hand, calmly, securely and fully "within-universe", is I believe ingratiating herself with someone she knows is innocent. I don't think her less substantive defence of sally, on the other hand, rules them out as allies. It is empty, neither one thing not the other, a mental shrug designed to shake off interest in sally just as a wolf partner might wish.

I remain for the moment fairly attracted to my shiniest, newest theory that elron is the third wolf. I note that Nerwen and phantom seem attracted to that theory too, and, naturally, that terrifies me.

But, for the moment, and indeed the Day

++LOSLOTE

I quite earnestly think this is a sensible choice, and I exhort anyone who, in that rare combination, trusts my heart and rates my head, to join me in it

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I didn't mean to tie the vote there yesterDay, and I did make a rather odd face there (something along the lines of o.O, only more so), but Glorfy's save sort of evened out the numbers a teensy bit. I consider it a good exchange, really - someone who could have been a wolf was killed instead of someone who couldn't have. So, all in all, I'm a lot less head-bang-y than I was at the end of yesterDay.

The fact that Glorfindel stopped the wolves kill, doesn't take away the dubious double-lynch. All Glorfindel did was negate the screw up. A good save by Glorfy, doesn't make a bad lynch suddenly a good one. The double-lynch and Glorfy's save are not related, it was still a bad lynch.

A double-lynch is never good, unless both Lommy and Nessa turn up as wolves, or some sort of wolf/cobbler duo. You can't whitewash over the double-lynch as no "biggie", simply because Glorfindel corrected the screw up. Sorry, not going to work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

On the other hand, it is frustrating to be left in the dark as we are now, and in fact we are quite handicapped by having no wolvish connections to trace. But Boro's breathless enthusiasm for the whole thing is starting to worry me.

Yeah, not enthusiastic about having to come down and be such a stiff, shouting orders.

I mean I considered just saying..."Dead peeps. Listen to me. Check Nessa. I want to know both identities of the double lynch." However, what good would that do? One, I'm not sure how trustworthy I am to the dead people to even listen. And two, we would be left debating in this thread whether they listened to me or not, and that would get us no where.

Look, the fact is, Agan and Shasta are known innocents. The type of players they are, they will both be cracking their whips in the dead thread to help us. They have no reason to lead us astray by telling us how they can give us information and then just not do it. Now we've got to do our part, by telling the dead what we want, so they can continue giving info.

The only way to do this is to not debate in circles about it, or hold it off until later like phantom wanted. But by getting a method that tells the dead what we want, and also leaves us a clear trail of "ok this is who the dead would have checked. If wolf they're going to give extra vote odd, if not-wolf even."

I won't talk about this anymore. I've said what I wanted to do. Agree with it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

Dead. Please Check Nessa

Lottie and phantom are topping my suspect list. I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch. And both of their attempts to pass it off as no big deal, with Lottie's "see it was a good exchange, because of Glorfindel!" Not going to convince me a double-lynch is a good exchange.

Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.

[satansaloser2005]

I dislike the double lynch. I dislike Lottie's part in said double lynch. I dislike Ang, and would be happy with lynching either of them toDay. I still dislike Boro, but can't decide between wolf and cobbler for him (am leaning toward the latter right now) so he's not my top priority.

I want to put a pudding in the oven.

I won't be back for a few hours.

[satansaloser2005]

Also....

Dead, please check toDay's lynch.

I'd like to know Lommy's role first, and then we can worry about Nessa.

[the phantom]

Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.

All right- now on to other matters.

Originally Posted by Boro

Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.

Is that what you really believe?

A few points worth considering-
1) Glorfy can pretty well clinch the game with a protection or two near the end. When the population is smaller his odds go up and then of course he can reveal his innocence as well as the intended targets and then there is an extremely high certainty of voting correctly.
2) Glorfy provides the only verifiable innocence check in the living thread. The Seer can't prove himself beyond all doubt, and once lynched he's dead. Glorfy on the other hand can give proven testimony, which when you consider that is precisely what we lack in this game set-up makes him quite powerful indeed.

It is perfectly legitimate for the Wolves to consider killing Glorfy consecutive times to be the safest path to victory given those facts, and they'd be much more likely to consider the path if people like you wouldn't try to convince them otherwise! I mean, yeesh, you're the one attempting sabotage here. Keep in mind that if we could've convinced them of the logic in offing Glorfy we would essentially be handing our Seer extra dreams, which was one of the primary points of my plot!

And the other primary point of my plot? Well, there is a chance that Glorfy protected the Seer last night, and if so, I'm thinking the Seer would very much like to know that this is his flippin last day among the living!! This is a HUGE factor. If Glorfy reveals and says "I protected so-and-so" and it's NOT the Seer, the Seer needn't hint at any dreams and can thus stay hidden. But if the protection was the Seer, he can then come right out in plain words with his dream choices.

Plus as I said before, it's 50-50 that Glorfy saved himself, and in that case hiding accomplishes nothing.

But go ahead, Boro, keep yammering. And keep bossing the village into doing pointless things, like the voting in red thing. That is NOT the best solution. The best solution is to leave the Dead open to act according to previous intelligence. Did you suggest the voting alternative in hopes that we will vote not to find out about Nessa? My goodness man, if Nessa turns out to be guilty you will look very bad indeed.