Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay, so, here's what we know thus far....

Shasta- Seer!
Nogrod- Hunter!
Aganzir- Ordo
Glirdan- Cobbler!
Green- Ordo
Nerwen- Beren!
Lottie- Wolf!
Wilwa- Ordo
Legate- Wolf!
Lommy- Glorfindel!
Blind- Ordo
Sally- Ordo
Boro- Cobbler!
Mith- Ordo
Ang- Ordo
Fea- Ordo
Phantom- Ordo

I've never played with these three, so I'm having difficulty reading them, but we know that one is a Wolf, one is a Cobbler, and the remaining is Luthien.
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nessa

Shall we treat this as your pre-season picks? So you can change your mind about these picks at any time you wish and be able claim you were right. Or if you change your mind and happen to be wrong, you can always go back to your pre-season picks and claim "SEE! I told you! I had them right from the very beginning!"

Edit: crossed with Nog

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, this is going to be a bloody mess as the roles will not be revealed in death. We will actually have only two kinds of partial information for certain.

1) those killed at Night were "non-wolves" (and if the wolves decide to kill only the quiet, under-radar players at Nights, we gain little or no actual info from that).
2) those who come back from death are either a lover or the ranger aka. a goodie (and we'll lose those pretty soon anyway).

3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.
4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And the only way to get something resembling reliable info is that which the seer can give to a lover or the ranger in Mandos - but that in turn means that the seer must die before lovers or ranger

What about this?

Originally Posted by Teh Roolz

Every Night (beginning when there are at least 3 dead), the dead people vote for one among themselves . At the end of the vote it will be revealed whether the person counts for the wolves or the innocent. (In other words, they will be told whether a fellow dead person is a wolf or not.)

[Nogrod]

Oops... I have totally missed that last one. Has it been added at some point or have I just managed to ignore it? Although the ruling only tells the identity of a wolf among the dead - so it looks like cobblers will be told to be "innocents" and can thus still mess the information there.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nooooo! What have I done? Forgive me, darling Mänluthien, I was too overcome with sorrow over poor Dobbin to think clearly.

Oh shush dearest, all is always forgiven, now come back to the bedroll.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.

Hey, I've gotten a lot better at that, as I managed not to kill Pitch last game. Granted, he found a way to inform us that he was the cobbler, but still, I think I got better!

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

[Aganzir]

Grr you are posting too much to my time-limited liking!
(Okay I just saw there were already two pages when I logged in and was expecting lengthy rules discussions etc. Scratch my complaint.)

Nog basically said everything I had in mind.

Originally Posted by Boro

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

And if he had continued the banter, you'd say "it's entirely unlike Nog to not post anything serious!"?

I have to go now, will be back later.

[Anguirel]

I have a sense that many of us are holding our breath. I certainly have been.

Here in no particular order are some observations and reactions -

This is a good set up for people with dodgy reputations, like, say, the phantom and, it must be said, me. Even if we are killed preemptively because we aren't trusted, we will have an active role to play; one of the reasons I was won over to this renaissance...

Nogrod, as you probably remember I'm always uncomfortable with the term nonsense; although admittedly, as we seem to agree, there has been chatter, I object to it not because it's irrelevant but because it's relevant and quite dangerous, being about Lovers etc.

The kind of nonsense I like - roles, hallo, yeargh, I be the village blacksmith etc - is not actually very much in evidence because we haven't picked roles. That said, I'm glad to find myself a First-Age Elf. I'm a follower of the House of Feanor. Obviously. I was carrying a message from Maedhros to Fingon and got mixed up in this ill-conceived patrol...

...still, fine, Nogrod, I accept that you are of the "stiff-lipped House of Finnwe", and prefer strategy on the whole to egregious colour. As a result Boromir's suspicion of you as a spinner seems, for the present, a bit too easy and a bit too tempting. Not that I suspect Boromir that much yet.

I'm not really of the school of thought that believes in giving such specific advice as you do to the Gifteds, though. Best pretend they don't exist, let them do their stuff cloak and daggered, ideally don't mention them until eight people are claiming to be the Seer and all that jazz.

A minor contribution to the interpretation of the Byzantine rules - it sounds to me like the spirits in Mandos do get told about cobblers; as in, they get told whether the ones they vote for are Elf or Wolf-aligned. But I agree it isn't very clear. I'd appreciate mod-Valar elucidation, but maybe that's a matter for the Dead Thread, not the Arda radar (ouch).

What happens if we kill all the wolves and there are still cobblers? (I feel cobbler is hardly the appropriate term for an Elven former cavalryman under minor possession!) We win, but we need an exorcist?

Oh, suspicions? Mith. How could you be so callous about my noble steed...sausages, for shame...

Real suspicions? I still don't feel any would be that rational. It's a striking fact, though, that there are an unusual quantity of evil voices here. Six out of twenty is almost one in three...every third contributor, alternately fanged and shod? Ok, Glirdan, Boromir and one other are wolves and Nerwen is a cobbler... ((by the way, this is a joke. It's also probably an inaccurate one. I really can't count.))

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Ang

A minor contribution to the interpretation of the Byzantine rules - it sounds to me like the spirits in Mandos do get told about cobblers; as in, they get told whether the ones they vote for are Elf or Wolf-aligned. But I agree it isn't very clear. I'd appreciate mod-Valar elucidation, but maybe that's a matter for the Dead Thread, not the Arda radar (ouch).

The dead cannot see cobblers. Wolf or non-Wolf is all they'll be able to tell.

[Anguirel]

Ah, the strains of Maglor's harp reveal my mistake; thanks, chum

If anyone else happens to be around I'd appreciate a chat. I might not be around so much latter today (in particular, it'll be a miracle if I'm in at the deadline)

[Mithalwen]

Oh Ang dear, don't take on ..no one could be fonder of living horses but I have a practical streak.. besides the traditional fate of a good hunter is to go to the dogs... anyway I am around and taking note.

[Anguirel]

Forgiven for now, Mith; what d'ya think of this then:

"Nog basically said everything I had in mind." - Aganzir

I can't remember if this is a traditional alliance, but right now I don't like it; or rather, I dislike it more expressly than anything else so far. I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

It's just struck me, too, that presumably our horses will be in Mandos (whither I somehow expect to be expedited pretty quickly) - that's some comfort!

[Mithalwen]

I wasn't keen on Nogrod appropriating the stiff upper lip from Albion.. the "we ..Finns" was a bit chummy. Obviously they can't all be wolves. And Aganzir is more able than most to take care of herself if I recall.

Fairly standard Nogrod to bring a dose of Nordic misery and then not practise what he preaches "I'm not going to tell anyone how to play but..." Wonder if he still plays voting chicken with the deadline...

Ang sweetest, the horses may be in Mandos though what they have to atone for I know not, perchance they graze already the pasture of Yavanna. However if they are what ever was last night's supper is there too and that might be socially more sticky. Especially if for the wolves since their supper (Rikae and Mac are surely there). No doubt I will now get my wrist slapped for frivolity.


I need to completemy spreadsheet (and to nip out for a bit anon) but I don't think I have any major suspicions as yet given that it is early doors and early posters have to say something. I don't like random lists particularly though ...too good a cover for mentionitis.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am here and looking at it, surprisingly enough, I haven't missed much, it seems. Like, one page, yes, but basically full of nothing. That's actually rather unusual. Normally there is a bit more of "something" among the "nothing" by this time. Either that, or there is less of the "nothing".

In any case, as for what Nog had said, he is of course right. Last game, I have said something which, in my opinion, should be upheld every game, if possible. I said something like that I am fine with everybody posting in-character or (like in this case) just banter for a while, but not for more than one or two post per each person (and that said, people actually DID it!). This time, I believe many of the people have exceeded it by a lot already. Like I said, no problem with having fun for a while, but if everybody keeps doing it for the whole game, we don't get anywhere. So I suggest to everyone: after second post at most, scratch it and start talking about something relevant (or at least, put SOMETHING relevant into your post).

A few general comments concerning the rules - as it's been said, there will be a lot more uncertainity in this game. I sort of take it for granted that the Gifteds will try to announce their roles to us before they die (in case they didn't manage to do it beforehand), so that it prevents unnecessary confusion. The Wolves might lie, of course, and the Cobblers will lie no doubt, but at least we will be sure that a person who dies after saying "I am the Seer/Ranger/Hunter" is not an Ordo, or vice versa (that's the most important part, I believe): like, we will know that an Ordo who dies is either an Ordo or a Wolf or Cobbler, but not a Gifted. Might give at least a bit more of guidance.

Likewise, voting - voting especially is now going to be a BIG problem, because it will take quite a lot of time until we can start making these pretty lists with even the very basic information like "on Day 2 this and this person voted for a known innocent". However, that does not mean we should refrain from making such lists, and comparing them with different options. (A pity Mac himself is not playing, I am sure he will enjoy it, as that's basically trying the same equation with different value set for unknown x.)

General comments on people... not much to comment on this far, apart from a few "basic" people. Phantom acts like Phantom, whatever he is, and Lottie acts weird to the point of looking like a Cobbler. Though I wonder if a Cobbler in this game wouldn't be a bit more reserved, given that they can stir a lot of confusion simply by existing and being unknown. At least at start. Lottie seems like just coming and making a mess from the beginning, absolutely uncoordinately. There are several people who haven't been playing for some time, which is nice, but it will probably take a bit more time to find out how/if their style has changed.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Shall we treat this as your pre-season picks? So you can change your mind about these picks at any time you wish and be able claim you were right. Or if you change your mind and happen to be wrong, you can always go back to your pre-season picks and claim "SEE! I told you! I had them right from the very beginning!"

I am not sure, like, was that a serious accusation?

Originally Posted by Anguirel

"Nog basically said everything I had in mind." - Aganzir

I can't remember if this is a traditional alliance, but right now I don't like it; or rather, I dislike it more expressly than anything else so far. I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

I don't see any problem with that, it can be simply a statement of fact. If somebody basically says everything you had in mind, well, you can just forward people to that (especially if it's just two posts ago) instead of repeating it. What else would you do, repeat it again? So no, I don't see anything special about that.

Okay, so that's it for now... speaking of that: I am sort of apologising in advance, I am afraid that I won't be as active in this game as I would like to due to RL obligations (I'm just in the middle of my exam term), but I will certainly post at least a couple of times per Day. So that's just to know... but well, a brain needs to relax. (Relax? Hm...)

Will check back later...

[Mithalwen]

Oh my only other observation just now is that while we have gifted with some interesting powers there is nearly a third of the village is up to no good and running very little risk in the short term given that even if we get a wolf straight off we won't know for a while. There are a lot of agendas going on here and I wouldn't see quietness as sinister perse in the first instance. But I hope there will be a bit more action before I vote... really don't want to try to be awake at 3 am ..

[the phantom]

So... the serious talk is under way

I'm looking forward to lunch, where I can read closely and respond for real.

I declare that the day has officially started!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ai, ai, my horse has been slain! We passed through many battles together! She deserved a more noble death than this mauling! A curse upon Morgoth for his evil works!

Oh... and that's too bad about Mac and Rikae too. They seemed like okay people, but maybe we should've picked different guards. Those two had a habit of shirking their duties in favor of.... other things.

What sort of other things? I'm so innocent and don't understand your meaning!

Also, clearly Maedhros did it. First little girls, now horses. What will he do next?!

Originally Posted by Loslote

Now, now, that title properly belongs to our dearest Cup Cake. I merely follow in her footsteps like a devoted puppy or something.

Good girl. ^_^

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Oh dear, she's going to have my head now, isn't she? I'm frightened.

My exact thought when I read these posts? How. Very. Dare. You.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Ahh, attempting to defract attention, are you?

There's a Battlestar Galactica reference in there somewhere. Or a trig problem. :/



So far I don't think Lottie is causing the good kind of chaos. Her interaction with Shasta seems a bit random to me, even for so early. Might I suggest Wolf Pack PopSicles? It's too early to tell though, so I'll have to look again later. I barely had time to skim, so alas I wasn't able to look at much.


I'm also sorry to say that this is probably the last you'll see of me toDay. I'm nowhere near prepared to vote, so I'll abstain for the Day, unless I'm somehow able to get on later in the evening (which doesn't look likely).

Please kill Phantom while I'm away. He's such a terribly bothersome man. <3

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nog basically said everything I had in mind.


And if he had continued the banter, you'd say "it's entirely unlike Nog to not post anything serious!"?

Probably would. However, the truth of the matter is he didn't, so it doesn't matter what I would have said in response to a hypothetical situation that did not occur. What did happen is he entered with a generic bleak "oh we look doomed we won't know roles at death." When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

In some ways this situation is a curse for the wolves. Whenever you have roles revealed at death, the wolves have the night to concoct whatever story they want, because everyone now knows the person's role. And the wolves can spin the lynch however they want. "How did that bandwagon happen against Glirdan yesterday! There must be a wolf in that evil wagon!" (when really it's just a false lead because as everyone would now know Glirdan's role) However, not getting the role at the person's death, means the wolves can't manipulate any information from the lynch, because to the non-wolves there is no info for the wolves to manipulate.

More information isn't necessarily better information. Sometimes it is, other times it just means there's more information for the wolves to manipulate in whatever way suits their purposes.

I didn't buy the bleak "we won't know the roles! We're in trouble!" business last game when the roles weren't revealed at death. And seeing how well the village did in that prior game, I'm certainly not buying it now.

As for the rest of Nog's post it's just basic on what we do learn from the deaths and then instructions to the gifteds (which of course Nog has to add they aren't obliged to follow). This caused, because of current events, what I will now call my twitter reaction. If there was a twitter-account in these parts of the world world, and if I cared to have one, I would tweet "Nog's on my radar that first post looks evil."

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure, like, was that a serious accusation?

Nah, sports joke. "Experts" make pre-season choices, but as the season goes on they change all their selections and winners, to try and boast their expertise. However, if they're wrong, they can always go back to their pre-season picks, because at one point in time they probably had the right choice, to where they can claim SEE I WAS RIGHT THIS WHOLE TIME! It's a nifty trick by sports analysts to try and prove they are experts, when really they don't know anything more than any other John Doe.

A underhanded jab at tp's ego, but not a serious accusation. My opinion of tp is still a work in process, to be determined at a later time.

Edit: crossed with Ms sally.

[Anguirel]

Yup, so I had a longish walk today as part of my general errantry, and it was vaguely thought provoking.

Trivial stuff first: Am I right in remembering Aganzir is of the stiff-lipped house of Finnwe too, which I had forgotten? That renders my elder brother metaphor rather literally silly and wrong, sorry about that. All in all I actually have little to go on here

Also, I can explain Mith's subversive question about the whereabouts of Macalaure and Rikae after their bodily deaths; surely they have clung to Middle-earth as Houseless Coavalta, covertly twisting events to their will...

Ahem, strategy, strategy.

Just two things about this Second Life situation we ought to consider.

1) The ability of the dead to detect wolves is triggered after three deaths (surely not counting the coavalta co-mods). In the normal way of things, there will only be two by tomorrow. Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

[Anguirel]

Oh, and

"Like I said, no problem with having fun for a while, but if everybody keeps doing it for the whole game, we don't get anywhere." - Legate

Sheer gold

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

Hahaha. That's cute. (Yes, I'm of the House of Finnwë.)

Legate talks about things in more length than seems necessary. Then again, he's always like that.

Originally Posted by Boro

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

I don't think he was being that bleak. I haven't played in a game like this before and my first thought was it's going to be a bloody mess. It makes more sense now that you explained why Nog's post rubbed you off, though (earlier it looked much more like an easy accusation).

Originally Posted by Ang

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

[Mithalwen]

People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? Pfft

Just becasue some of us intend to enjoy the ride, it doesn't mean we aren't going somewhere

[Thinlómien]

Well I said this game is going to confuse me and that's what it's doing no doubt. That said, I'm at least happy Nog took up the "stiff upper lip house of Finnwë" stuff so I don't need to do that.

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...

Originally Posted by Nog

And that means also, that getting the lovers and the ranger dead will be the first priority of the wolves: if they die early their return will not help us that much (and a double-protection is not such a mighty weapon in a big village than later) as the living then lose their only shot at any tangible information.

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.

Depends how nice our mods are. If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.

Originally Posted by Boro whom I still haven't forgiven for last game

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering".

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference.

Originally Posted by Mith

no one could be fonder of living horses but I have a practical streak.

I first read this as "but I have a practical steak" and I was like, nice confession mate.

Legate gives me headache. Might just be his style. But really! See how long a novel he writes just to state a few obvious thoughts. I think my head is sort of over-sensitive to headache in big games with new rules, though.

Originally Posted by Sally

Also, clearly Maedhros did it. First little girls, now horses. What will he do next?!

Now, now! You were still backing him up in the latest round of hurt and heal - what happened? Grew some fur, eh?

Originally Posted by Boro

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

Quite optimistic, given that the regular scenario is that the wolves spot the seer early on and the ranger lives until the end game, which is kind of unlike what we want this time. In this game, we really got to use our wits (even) more than usual. A random vote from anyone toDay and you have a host of hostile penguins at your door. Just warning.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

I pity your packmates! Anyway, interesting thoughts. Shows I haven't given the dead enough thought, for one.


edit: xed with Agan and Mith

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

Well, I'm glad you scrutinised my first suggestion better than I had done (it is indeed pretty useless), but I'm afraid it was made in good faith. I've never been a cobbler (at least, not officially), and don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting

I do feel you dismiss my second point too quickly though. A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage (as Gifteds who recognise each other have managed to do in the past). Cobblers are all very well, but they don't really know who they're helping; a wolf, especially if they were sacrificed in such a way that they looked very convincing, could do much more informed damage.

Then again, my kinsmen have probably been the most prone to wolf-hanging of all wolves, so perhaps I'm judging a less pathologically devious pack by my own standard...

I feel remarkably uncommitted in terms of real suspicion, and indeed sense that this feeling is general. I see I'm not alone in quite wanting to lynch Legate to make things a bit less hardline, but kicking him upstairs into Mandos won't do much good in that direction anyway.

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

[Thinlómien]

Shasta - no alarm bells... yet.
Nogrod - seems ok.
Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?
Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.
A Little Green - is making me and our friends deep fried bananas right now so I can forgive her for not posting.
elronds_daughter - didn't post yet, did she?
Mänwe - only banter this far. Cobbler?
Nerwen - kind of disturbing combination of banter and sharp understanding of facts. Feel like saying cobbler again, but I guess I should come up with something more original to make my suspicion feeling concrete. Wolf?
Loslote - I said already I don't like the fangirlism.
Wilwa - is absent.
Legate - confusing. Cannot judge him yet (if ever). *shudders*
Nessa - absent as well.
Blind Guardian - the only thing I recall from her regarding this game is that she was happy the dead can talk. Should we do her a favour and make her the first one?
satansaloser2005 - fishy as a fish.
the phantom - like I said, annoys me.
Boromir88 - I refrain from judging him in order not to do it wrong this time. Watching.
Mithalwen - seems innocent this far, I think.
Anguirel - still trying to figure out what he's up to.
Fea - not here.

Hmmm. Normally I don't suspect anyone, this time I suspect almost everyone. Not sure if it's any improvement. Shall be away for now, coming back later.


edit: xed with Ang

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

Oh resist a while.. don't want to be the first to arrive at a party...

[Aganzir]

Shasta, Lottie, phantom, Glirdan, Nerwen, Ang, Mith
These people filled page 1 with banter (I'm the most okay with Mith because she was posting at stupid-o'clock and Ang because he only posted once). Statistically, there are two baddies in this group. I usually loathe statistics, but I don't like the fact that it took 36 posts to get to anything serious.

GUILTY
Anguirel. Double lynch plan which looked reasonable at first glance but doesn't help us at all. His tone is more innocent than his words, though.
phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).
Lottie. Doesn't sit quite right with me. Plus she bantered for four hours.
Boro. I don't really like his casting suspicion on the first person to post some substance. He explained it better later, but it still seems too easy.
Shasta. "Should know better than to banter with the Mistress of Youtube" but does it anyway.

INNOCENT
Nerwen. Amuses me. I'm okay with her for now.
Lommy. I like her plan of lynching phantom. I also like her. I'm not sure I've ever played against Wommy yet, but she always seems to give me innocent vibes (except the times we argue ).
sally. Guess what? I think she looks good. (I'm about as surprised about this as about trusting Mac in last game.) And I like her PopSicles point.
Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.

EITHER
Legate. Too verbose to my liking but could go either way. I have him down as a cobbler till he says his points with fewer words.
Nogrod. Raised good points which tells us nothing whatsoever about his role. He actually kind of creeps me out... but I don't know.
Glirdan. Very little to go on, but I like him the most in the chatty group.
Mänwe

WHERE?
Fea
BG
Nessa
wilwa
ed
Green (answer: in my kitchen, just made caramelized bananas. This keeps her from receiving my vote today.)

[the phantom]

Okay, I'm here! Time to actually get a handle on the rules and roles I'd say.

I have spent a grand total of... oh... five minutes considering tactics and such. I planned to dedicate a good deal of time to it during the first Night, but I was run ragged from dawn until dusk. So, I'm going to say some things and please tell me if my assumptions are missing a key point of this match.

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.

And now to read the posts I've missed....

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before.

Love you too, dear.

And quite honestly, from a tactical perspective I am attempting to think through whether or not an Ordo should even bother fighting any sort of tide that comes his direction. If one is not gifted, should one fight at all, considering there are Lovers and Glorfindel to protect? But it is so very counter to my nature, and I greatly prefer to exit via Wolf-kill. Bleh.

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Actually I disagree. If they manage to kill both Glorfindel and a lover before the seer, there's no one to bring back a word from Mandos.

If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.

Or if the hunter isn't around at the deadline and can't reveal...

Originally Posted by Anguirel

don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting

It's not the best role for people with an ego... but it's possible.

A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?

Guess what I almost just did? Quoted your post (about trying to find the cobblers) and said the phrasing looked fishy. Then I was like "oh my god I can't start this."

I don't like how many people still haven't posted. I might vote for one of them just out of principle, or one of my Guilties (preferably Lottie or phantom).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted

As I see it there's nothing that stops the living lover from revealing once her significant other dies. We'll know it soon enough anyway if she isn't telling the truth, and that way the village has a known innocent at least for a day.

By the way Rikae what happens if a lover is lynched and the wolves kill the other? Does the first to die still come back?

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

Definitely not. The seer is more useful as long as she's alive because the dead have a rough way of telling whether someone is innocent but the living don't.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

The wolves are more likely to kill him for good once he comes back from Mandos and then we don't have a ranger. If we want to send a messenger to Mandos, it'd make more sense to kill a lover... except then we're two players down. Hmm.

Will be back later.

[Rikae]

One lover needs to be alive to bring the other back, so if the wolves manage to kill the second lover while the first is dead, both stay dead.

[the phantom]

(Thinking out loud here....)

Are all the votes and results completely public on the Dead-Thread? In other words, we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

Because private voting is HUGELY different. If everything is public, then it is my opinion that the good side will take swift and total control of the Dead activities. They can coordinate their vote with the Seer dreams, making certain never to repeat anyone, meaning that essentially this village starting tomorrow will have TWO Seer dreams in every single cycle, and that there is no possible way for the Wolves to stop those dreams, and so long as Glorfindel or the Lovers survive for a bit the Living will have an absolute ton of information to work with.

Not to mention that the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living, and if the voting weight is repeated on the same person, that will be a sign that the dream from the previous night was a Wolf (or died), which also could help.

Also, plans could be made on the Dead Thread and passed up to the Living, such as, "Tell them that so-and-so is getting dreamed tonight when I dream, and if that person doesn't receive the extra vote the following day then they must be a Wolf." Are you following me with this, or am I completely off base and forgetting something obvious?

[the phantom]

Seriously, you folks who've done a lot of imagining of situations, tell me if my above post is not possible, because as I'm thinking about this thing it's sort of looking obvious that the Seer should purposefully die, as it would in fact NOT mean the end of communication between him and the Living, particularly if we can agree to the pattern of voting I proposed in which every day the village knows to trust anyone that the Dead handed an extra vote to.

The largest problem I can see is a Seer whose identity is not believed for whatever reason. That could be disaster, but I'm thinking given the players in this game I wouldn't imagine an extensive Seer-bluff over a great period of time could succeed.

Understand also that I'm not at this time proposing this!! All I wish to know now is if my limited time for thinking has caused me to misjudge the situation. IF it is determined that my thoughts are correct, then we can move on to actual discussion of options.

(Basically, I don't want anyone claiming I'm purposefully pushing something harmful in willful ignorance of some key point. I'd be an idiot to assume that said key point won't be brought to light given the makeup of this village.)

Anyway, my time is up for now. I'll be back as soon as my trip home is ended.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

[Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.

How good? Rubbish as any fule kno.... Aim to entertain... may work on being alarming..and I suppose I shall have to take a more serious look at the more serious posts before it gets much later...

[Aganzir]

Okay I'm back because the plans for tonight changed.

Phantom are you keeping in mind that the seer can only dream of dead players after her death? And if she dies without revealing, there's no way the living can tell it was her. What if a dead wolf/cobbler fake reveals as the seer?

[Thinlómien]

Gah. It's too late for messing my head more with possible case scenarios and stuff like that. Sorry for not being around so much - but today happened to be a busy day and toMorrow I'll actually be quite quiet too but then I should have more to say as I will have thought about things more.

++Mänwë

He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all. Not that this is much to go on with! Good night.


edit: xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

How good?

You were a brilliant alpha in my first ever game as a wolf! (Even though you revealed out of boredom. )

[Nogrod]

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

We need some information at some point of the game, preferably later. And we know how to get it: our gifted goodies need to sacrifice themselves - and they all come with a prize.

Talking of those who seem to understand our situation, Aganzir and the phantom are okay with me: they seem to make sense and have a hang of our situation (even if I don't agree with their every statement). A cobbler or a wolf can make sense too, but I'm quite happy with them thus far. We need more clearheaded people like them around, especially in this game.

Also Lommy seems to make sense even if she is incorrect in thinking the seer is the prime target. As I said earlier, the lovers and the ranger are, because getting rid of them makes empty any hope of getting any information over the "killed by Night so therefore not a wolf" -cases.

Legate seems his verbiose-self which actually indicates nothing of his role.

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...

Originally Posted by Mith

People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? Pfft

Isn't that a bit like overdoing something here? And actually what I meant (and I guess some others did) was not that being or having fun is bad. Playing a game that was not fun would be miserable. But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*


EDIT: X'd with a bunch of posts.
EDIT2: Added a correction in CAPITAL LETTERS...

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Aaand, that's all I've got. It's better than math for a first post though, huh? We all know where that went Not to mention the dead thread would probably break my calculator.

[Mithalwen]

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing .... rather like when surgeons call an operation a technical success :S Or when my dear dad was told that his new boss was "outstanding in his field" and answered that the field was presumably one where useless gits were irritating as well as incompetent. Heigh ho..