Gimli's Route to Rivendell

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would think Glóin and Gimli made their way from Erebor through Mirkwood, then to the Carrock and the Pass of Imladris. That was the "High Pass" referred to by Glóin in his conversation to Frodo in Rivendell.

Many Meetings

Since that route was known to be safe, it seems logical that's the way the Dwarves would have taken.

Doesn't it seem strange that he never bothered to stop at nearby Moria while enroute to Rivendell?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Doesn't it seem strange that he never bothered to stop at nearby Moria while enroute to Rivendell?

Well, Moria wasn't exactly "nearby" the route they were taking. Keep in mind that it took the Fellowship more than two weeks to reach the West-gate from Rivendell.

Also, concern about the state of Balin and his dwarf-colony in Moria was one of the things that drove Dáin to send emissaries to see Elrond. That, and the ominous messenger from Mordor. Glóin and Gimli were to seek the advice of Elrond, not to check on things in Moria themselves.

[Rumil]

Yeah High Pass I think it has to be-

after all

it is better than the honey-cakes of the Beornings, and that is great praise, for the Beornings are the best bakers that I know of; and they are none too willing to deal out their cakes to travellers in these days

Not conclusive of course but I think with the "Many Meetings" quote this strengthens the argument that Gimli had recently visited the Beornings and travelled via the ford of Carrock and the High Pass.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Not conclusive of course but I think with the "Many Meetings" quote this strengthens the argument that Gimli had recently visited the Beornings and travelled via the ford of Carrock and the High Pass.

Doesn't Gloin also grumble over the high tolls the Beorings charge for passage though their lands while maintaining that they still should be commended for keeping the High Pass accessible?

Yup, it must be the High Pass...

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, Moria wasn't exactly "nearby" the route they were taking. Keep in mind that it took the Fellowship more than two weeks to reach the West-gate from Rivendell.

Also, concern about the state of Balin and his dwarf-colony in Moria was one of the things that drove Dáin to send emissaries to see Elrond. That, and the ominous messenger from Mordor. Glóin and Gimli were to seek the advice of Elrond, not to check on things in Moria themselves.

Inzil,

I don't mean to belabor the point, but I still believe a diversion to Moria would seem logical, given:
-that Gimli was keen to know the fate of his kin in Moria
-Dain was, as well
-the time that the dwarves took between Sauron's emissaries
-the resulting decision to (finally) send Gimli abroad
-and the time it takes to travel from Erebor to Rivendell

I'm not saying you're wrong- your explanation is sound; it's the dwarves' reasoning that seems, well... strange. After all of that time spent treating with Sauron, and the long journey, Gimli dashed right to Rivendell, and no other dwarves of renown were sent to check on Moria.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I'm not saying you're wrong- your explanation is sound; it's the dwarves' reasoning that seems, well... strange. After all of that time spent treating with Sauron, and the long journey, Gimli dashed right to Rivendell, and no other dwarves of renown were sent to check on Moria.

From what Glóin said to the Council, it had been approximately thirty years since Balin and his group had set out for Moria. "For a while" they were in contact with with Erebor, then they went silent. According to Gandalf's reading of the Book of Mazarbul, the colony endured for five years.
Naturally, King Dáin was well-versed in the dangers of Moria: he'd been present at the Battle of Nanduhirion and may have actually gotten a glimpse of the Balrog. When Thráin talked then of taking back Moria, Dáin tried talking sense to him, just as he tried to dissuade Balin later.

But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria.

Appendix A

When news from Balin's colony ceased, Dáin would have guessed that nothing in the power of his kingdom could rescue them if they'd run into trouble in Moria.
When the messenger from Mordor came, Dáin then could have seen a chance to kill two birds with one stone, getting advice on two matters that greatly worried him.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Doesn't it seem strange that he never bothered to stop at nearby Moria while enroute to Rivendell?

I don't want to seem rude but what map are you looking at that makes Moria nearby? Erebor lies North East of the High Pass and is a good 250 miles as the crow flies, rather longer even if the woodelves help or at least do not hinder your journey through Mirkwood. Moria is about 200 miles further South by a straight line route you can't take since you have to cope with the river, the marshes and the nasties which are gaining strength in the mountains. Also you have to pass pretty close to Dol Guldur, whence the emissary of Sauron - on whose demands you are urgently seeking advice before the end of the year (and this is now November)-probably came. Even if you took this route the Dimrill Dale would have been clear.

All in all would have been eccentric if not irresponsible to take this substantial detour.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't want to seem rude but what map are you looking at that makes Moria nearby? Erebor lies North East of the High Pass and is a good 250 miles as the crow flies, rather longer even if the woodelves help or at least do not hinder your journey through Mirkwood. Moria is about 200 miles further South by a straight line route you can't take since you have to cope with the river, the marshes and the nasties which are gaining strength in the mountains. Also you have to pass pretty close to Dol Guldur, whence the emissary of Sauron - on whose demands you are urgently seeking advice before the end of the year (and this is now November)-probably came. Even if you took this route the Dimrill Dale would have been clear.

All in all would have been eccentric if not irresponsible to take this substantial detour.

As I explained in my previous message, I meant that in relative terms, given the distance traveled already and all of the time spent treating with Sauron's emissaries and making a decision.

It also seemed strange that no other dwarves of renown (Gimli can't be the only fit and hardy warrior in Erebor, after all) were sent to check on Moria.

Inzil has covered a lot of the answers already.

[Mithalwen]

But it doesn't make sense relative to the journey they have already made...It doubles it. Yes they are interested in Balin but it isn't their top priority. Dain took 500 warriors to the Battle of the five armies. There were probably more left in the Iron Hills but some would have been killed in the Bo5A . We know that some had decamped to Moria and Dwarves are slow breeders so Dain doesn't have that much manpower to spare on a non vital errand especially through such dangerous territory.

I don't see what the Moria colony could have brought to the table to use albeit appropriate management speak. It would just have been a complete waste of time and resources merely to satisfy curiosity. Dain surely knew Bilbo was at Rivendell. In fact Gloin says he was sent to warn Bilbo. If you go to warn someone you do not take a detour for a fact finding mission especially if it will take you twice as long... and we are talking extra weeks not another hour or day. We don't know that Gimli and Gloin travelled alone, in fact they probably didn't since otherwise Gimli might not have left his father to travel alone . Dain would have had to send a larger party to Moria since the route was more dangerous and he must expect danger at its end.. I don't believe it was a logical option to waste warriors on what he must have guessed would be a wild goose chase, especially when they could not return in time. Even if he had sent them after the first messenger visit I don't think it would be a sensible use of slender resources.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it doesn't make sense relative to the journey they have already made...It doubles it.

Again, as I said before, from the time the dwarves saw that things were worrisome (the arrival of Sauron's first emissary) to the time Gimli arrived in Rivendell, there was plenty of time to check on the status of Moria. Especially since they hadn't heard from Balin already for years; Balin, himself, was killed in TA 2994- 24 years before the Council of Elrond.

Gimli could have left earlier and checked it himself, enroute- maybe not the best plan. Or Dain could have sent another party- a better plan. It just seems odd that Gimli went all the way to Rivendell and, only because Caradhras was impassible, was finally the first dwarf to scout Moria after Balin's colonists.

Yes they are interested in Balin but it isn't their top priority.

I've always thought family was a priority.

Dain took 500 warriors to the Battle of the five armies. There were probably more left in the Iron Hills but some would have been killed in the Bo5A . We know that some had decamped to Moria and Dwarves are slow breeders so Dain doesn't have that much manpower to spare on a non vital errand especially through such dangerous territory.

All the more reason to check on them, I say. Slow breeders, few in number, and family members. Think about how some people now fret if they can't get an answer on someone's cell phone, and they hadn't heard from Moria for years. It doesn't seem sensible.

I don't see what the Moria colony could have brought to the table to use albeit appropriate management speak. It would just have been a complete waste of time and resources merely to satisfy curiosity.

Dain couldn't have known that. You do because you have metaknowledge as a reader. And I'm only talking about a small party of dwarves. I'll bet for the right price, some Beornings or Dalemen could have accompanied them. The dwarves certainly had wealth to spare. I know they're a bit xenophobic, but really... Besides, Erebor and Dale had good relations.

Dain surely knew Bilbo was at Rivendell. In fact Gloin says he was sent to warn Bilbo. If you go to warn someone you do not take a detour for a fact finding mission especially if it will take you twice as long... and we are talking extra weeks not another hour or day.

Once again (hopefully the last time), sending Gimli enroute was one possibility. Others could have been sent and/or earlier.

We don't know that Gimli and Gloin travelled alone, in fact they probably didn't since otherwise Gimli might not have left his father to travel alone . Dain would have had to send a larger party to Moria since the route was more dangerous and he must expect danger at its end.. I don't believe it was a logical option to waste warriors on what he must have guessed would be a wild goose chase, especially when they could not return in time. Even if he had sent them after the first messenger visit I don't think it would be a sensible use of slender resources.

I think you're only guessing about how slender Dain's resources may have been. He brought 500 warriors ("skilled veterans" as described here) to the Bo5A. Skilled veterans would make up a minority percentage of any army, and a small percentage of any race/nation's population. Somewhere there were also dwarf children (growing and born) and women, even with their slow reproduction rate, and nonwarrior men.

The Bo5A was in TA 2941, and the Council of Elrond was in 3018. 77 years is a lot of time to harness a peoples' strength, even among long-lived races like dwarves.

Anyway, this seems to be descending into a debate I didn't intend to spend this much time on.

[Rumil]

It is still rather a mystery as to why no conatct was kept up between Dain and Balin. I see two or three possibilities

1- Politically maybe it was against Dain's interest to be in contact - Balin had defied his authority after all and we know that the Dwarves held serious grudges

2- Messengers were sent but never returned (either direction) probably caught by the orcs somewhere in the Carrock-Dul Guldur area, or on the approaches to Moria itself. Perhaps Dwarven captives still languished in the dungeons of Moria and/or Dol Guldur?

3. Messengers were sent but ran into orcish forces as above but escaped, returned and Dain or Balin concluded it was pointless to try and get through again.

Possibly a combination?

I agree that Gimli had different fish to fry.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

It is still rather a mystery as to why no conatct was kept up between Dain and Balin. I see two or three possibilities

1- Politically maybe it was against Dain's interest to be in contact - Balin had defied his authority after all and we know that the Dwarves held serious grudges

We know that wasn't the case, because Dáin had actually given permission for Balin to go.

'At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go: and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk....'

Glóin at the Council of Elrond

I see that as Dáin doing everything in his power to talk Balin out of going, then giving in when he saw Balin wasn't going to let the matter rest.

Originally Posted by Rumil

2- Messengers were sent but never returned (either direction) probably caught by the orcs somewhere in the Carrock-Dul Guldur area, or on the approaches to Moria itself. Perhaps Dwarven captives still languished in the dungeons of Moria and/or Dol Guldur?

3. Messengers were sent but ran into orcish forces as above but escaped, returned and Dain or Balin concluded it was pointless to try and get through again.

I don't think the second and third options are likely either. Glóin indicated that they simply stopped receiving messages from Moria, with no mention of any more of Dáin's people going missing after being sent to check on Balin and Co.

I still think the likely reason Erebor did not try to re-establish contact was Dáin. He alone had looked into Moria and seen Durin's Bane. He had to the wisdom to recognise after the great Battle of Nanduhirion that not even all the forces they had there at their disposal, after the Orcs had been destroyed, were enough to drive out or destroy Durin's Bane. I imagine him thinking, after not hearing from the colony for a long time, "Well, I was afraid something like that would happen. I tried to tell him going there was a mistake. If Balin and the others are dead, there's nothing I can do."