Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were. Since you have no immediate way of verifying these assumptions, you can not say that he is illogical. You can say that you disagree, and this would be true. You can even say that you think he is wrong, and explain why. This is, again, sound logic. But to say that he is illogical because you don't like what conclusions his logic draws is not sound logic.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

How exactly did they "toss away" their votes? They voted. End of story. If they had sat on their bums for a few hours and then voted for me, the result would've been the same- Phantom gains two votes.

How is your vote any better than theirs? Let me ask you, what information do you know right now? Who has been lynched so far? Who has been Night-killed? Which roles have been revealed?

For all you know you just elected a SoE, where as I know for a fact that the ladies you are criticizing elected an orc.

[the phantom]

I remind you of a stuck-up know-it-all, Folwren?

YOU are the one telling people that their votes are stupid when they're not, and demanding that people see things your way. I'm merely pointing out facts. Again and again, since people are unwilling to grasp the points.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Lottie

If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them.

Precisely. I have explained my position logically and reasonably, and it's not my fault that people aren't following. For the 10th time- Lottie and Sally knew just as much as you when they voted. And oh by the way, they voted for a true orc. I mean- you can't argue with results. You really think lynching me would deflate me? *snerk* No, it would merely result in me dancing around saying, "Told you so!"

And by the way, I haven't even given the best justification for my antics and their early votes yet. In the end if I'm forced to say it I will, but the fact that more of you haven't backed off on this issue tells me that you haven't carefully considered everything about this village. Boro in particular- it's one of the main reasons I'm suspicious of you, as given your usual method of operating you would've seen two advantages in particular in doing what I have done and would have attempted to hint to me to the fact that you knew what I was doing. I mean, as far as "ploys" go this one is rather more obvious than those I typically favor.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot

I've already explained that one, m'dear. It was largely a ploy (which could have been useful if it hadn't been blundered into and blown up so early). I remarked earlier that I knew good and well it wouldn't happen, so how can you think I honestly was trying for it? It's like me saying "I'm going to leap over the moon!" and then jumping as high as I can. Was I honestly trying to jump over the moon?

I knew I wouldn't get massive power, but I didn't mind getting a bit extra seeing as I am the only person I know is orcish and I have no intention of dying early, and votes in hand can help avoid that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

Erm, what? I don't recall ever ever saying or implying anything like that. All of my defenses of my voters have been primarily a reaction to people seeing something fishy about them when in fact it wasn't that big of a deal at all if considered cooly and realistically.

As a matter of fact I don't believe I have ever even declared my voters as being trustworthy or true orcs. I have merely been defending them against a specific attack which I saw as being a perplexing stretch of reasoning. In general when I see more than one person grasping onto the same legless argument I am quick to suspect that something odd is going on.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What? What about hanging around and telling us who you suspect and helping the reps making their choices?

Nope. You said I needed vacation right? So, I'm going to take it. I can't vote and I'm not going to lobby for anyone's death. My standard approach when I do have a vote on Day 1, it is to try and not do anything catastrophically stupid. I read all the posts, figure out a few of the people who look good and trustworthy, but not so much who looks bad. Thus, with no information other than what people decide to say openly, my Day 1 votes become based on who I don't want to see lynched at that point and not so much a vote on who I think is definitely evil.

For this is something that phantom is right about, when it comes to sally, Lottie, and Mira's votes for him. Anyone who looks like they know too much either really does know too much or is faking it for some reason. I don't see much benefit to an SoE looking like they know too much, because it is that very act which usually gets them in trouble. Thus, some one faking they know too much is probably an ordo trying to paint a target on their backs so the SoEs kill them and not the seer, or they really do know too much and it's good chance that person is evil.

Beyond that, I won't be able to add much, sorry. I mean I could say a bunch of random comments like "phantom is up to something," but saying phantom is up to something, is like saying I will drink anything...like really...anything. This thread is already going to get epically long, I care not to clog it up more with captain obvious statements. You know who I feel pretty decent about, and who I don't. I'm not going to lobby for anyone's lynching when I aint got a clue.

Now if I understand Shasta, Nerwen, and Foley's objection to those who voted phantom as a rep, instead of feigning information, it looks like they are feigning ignorance and are hiding behind random votes to look innocent. Eh, as silly as it is, I don't think there's evil intent there. I've already shared my opinion on those three votes, and one thing I will not stand for is to be mis-represented *glares at Rune*

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have been very surprised with the passion that Boro attacked Sally and Lottie's votes for the Phantom. He clearly put a lot of effort into the trash talking of these people. I am not totally unsympathetic to the points he made, but I don't think I have ever seen Boro act in that manner on a Day1. Just like Lommy he seems to have undergone some sort of change, only Lommy's change seems more natural to me.

I did not attack either of their votes. I said their votes actually looked innocent.

With regards to Mira, it's funny, because Foley said something about how it looks like she hasn't been paying attention, but Mira said that exact thing in her posts. Mira has no method to her decisions beyond "I like what you're saying, you've got my support. I don't like what you're saying, I'm going to kill you." It makes her a formidable wear-bear because it's nearly untrackable. But ultimately a poor wolf strategy, because you need to work with others and come up with some plan of attack. Trust me, you'd be able to tell if Mira was evil, because even if she would still have no method, her excitement at being evil is simply uncontainable. You would literally be able to read it straight out of her posts.

My disappointment was more to say "Really, Mira? That's all it takes to get bribed? Psh...easy. You should get lynched for that and I won't take the noose for you this time."

Originally Posted by the phantom

Boro in particular- it's one of the main reasons I'm suspicious of you, as given your usual method of operating you would've seen two advantages in particular in doing what I have done and would have attempted to hint to me to the fact that you knew what I was doing. I mean, as far as "ploys" go this one is rather more obvious than those I typically favor.

Like I said, you're always doing something, but I can't read your mind here. I can see what you're doing, I just don't know whom for yet. You know I will drink with ye, but I carry a blade and never turn my back for a reason. I trust nothing here except my own eyes and ears. I look out for myself, and make sure the good businesses here stay in business, that's it. I care not what happened centuries ago, and I care not to partake in any of it. I these no-good-uppity Elves think they can come in here and start a fight because they can't let go of a grudge, I say bring it. But if anyone is going to insist we deserve what the SoE's are coming here to do because of something that happened centuries ago, or insist I would have partaken in it, is no lad of mine.

Edit: crossed with Wilwa and Nerwen

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Trust me, you'd be able to tell if Mira was evil, because even if she would still have no method, her excitement at being evil is simply uncontainable. You would literally be able to read it straight out of her posts.

My disappointment was more to say "Really, Mira? That's all it takes to get bribed? Psh...easy. You should get lynched for that and I won't take the noose for you this time."

It's true. Also dear, you're contradicting yourself. You just said I'm not evil, but deserve to be lynched. Why advocate lynching someone who you said yourself isn't evil?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

It's true. Also dear, you're contradicting yourself. You just said I'm not evil, but deserve to be lynched. Why advocate lynching someone who you said yourself isn't evil?

There's a difference between choosing not to oppose something, and advocating for it. Even if it was Day 1, you were bribed by phantom far too easily. Show a little more care with your votes, which would be deserving that I risk my neck for you, and you know I will. Until then, I've said my thoughts on your alignment, the Reps can listen or not, either way doesn't matter to me. You haven't done anything to show you'd be a terrible loss even if I think you're innocent.

[Eönwë]

Oh, and sorry. I promise I'll try to do the vote list if I'm still alive toMorrow.

Goodnight.

[Eönwë]

Actually, I have a few more things to say:

• We haven't had enough people voting, which is never good.
• Those not posting much are being ignored, as if they're being rewarded for not being around. Now, I know it can be hard to have time when you have a lot to do IRL, but it doesn't mean those people should get a free pass- and the intentionally quiet ones generally just slip by easily, letting the vocal players kill each other off.

And as for my opinion on some people:

• Kath- What I've seen looks good, but she's good at hiding evilness and plays almost the same way whatever her alignment.
• Shasta- Not sure if I like him or not. I can never read him, especially when he's evil.
• Greenie- I'm getting evil undertones from her. There's definitely something darker (or is that lighter) about her more recent posts.

Also, I don't really like the Celuien suspicions. I mean, she only has 9 posts, which is hardly enough to begin to properly suspect someone from lynvhing.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Celuien has already been modkilled, but I agree - all those who suspected Celuien the most (I'm mostly looking at you here, Rune) - how is it you can suspect someone of Elfishness when they've made nine posts? Definitely seems like the easy out to me.

Sorry for not being around, I worked all day. I'm not going to bother answering any of Lommy's allegations, as they basically come down to 'gut feeling', which is unanswerable (sorry, love, but they do).

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That would be the assumption that he's the best man for the job, yes?

No, I was in fact refering to the assumption that he's an orc. Since he can make that assumption, he can logically draw the conclusion that Sally, Mira, and I voted for an orc. No one else can make that assumption, so the fact that the rest of the village doesn't accept his logic does not mean that it is not logical.

Also, Lottie, why aren't you worried by phantom's promise not to lynch those who voted for him?

1. That promise was made after I voted.

2. Well, it's pretty obvious that a representative isn't likely to vote for the people they represent. It's sort of counter-productive for those who want to remain in power rather than being mistrusted by the voters for the rest of the game, isn't it?

EDIT: xed with The Puddingtom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Phantom

For the 10th time- Lottie and Sally knew just as much as you when they voted.

Not true. Folwren had several pages of discussion to read through and form opinions before she voted, I believe, information that Lottie and Sally certainly did not have when they voted.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

No, I was in fact refering to the assumption that he's an orc. Since he can make that assumption, he can logically draw the conclusion that Sally, Mira, and I voted for an orc. No one else can make that assumption, so the fact that the rest of the village doesn't accept his logic does not mean that it is not logical.

No, but the logic doesn't go very far, does it?

Originally Posted by Loslote

1. That promise was made after I voted.

I know, but you specifically mentioned that it didn't bother you– that's what I was asking about not, "why did you vote him?"

Originally Posted by Loslote

2. Well, it's pretty obvious that a representative isn't likely to vote for the people they represent. It's sort of counter-productive for those who want to remain in power rather than being mistrusted by the voters for the rest of the game, isn't it?

Yes, but isn't promising not to vote the people one represents counter-productive for those who want to hunt wolves– er, I mean, Elves?

True, I won't be voting Greenie or Legate just for a default–lynch. But if either of them starts looking distinctly Elvish, that's a different matter.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Me

For the 10th time- Lottie and Sally knew just as much as you when they voted.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Not true. Folwren had several pages of discussion to read through and form opinions before she voted, I believe, information that Lottie and Sally certainly did not have when they voted.

Your response has nothing to do with my statement. I did not say L & S had the same number of posts to read over when they voted, but rather that they knew the same exact amount when they voted. Actual knowledge. Something you can bank on. Reading through five pages of "I don't like those early votes!" and "I don't like Phantom!" and "You're wrong!" and "Let's not split votes!" does not qualify as gaining actual real knowledge. You can try and form a hunch based upon such things, but that is all.

Meh- I want to say something to you, but I really shouldn't. Just... read everything I've said today, and consider it from all angles and think what sorts of things an orc-Phantom would want to accomplish and how things I have done might fit in line with those goals. Let me know if it falls into place.

[the phantom]

All right, extremely tired. *yawn* I'll be around most of tomorrow.

[Isabellkya]

Originally Posted by Rune

In my humble opinion it is downright silly to make a "rule" that say only two votes per representative. You should vote for the person you find fit for the job and not some half-random person whos only merits is that they don't have two votes yet. . Not only does it provide excellent cover for SoE, but more importantly it is no fun.

I want political intrigue, I want representatives who abuse power and then get brutally punished come next election time. . . or more realistic, gets re-elected.

In my ideal world we would have one person with something like 49% of the votes, so that the rest of the representatives where forced to work together in order to get any influence. Then we would have dynamic system, with lots of negotiating and stuff to analyse. . .

Isn't this the same as the 'two votes per Rep' suggestion? Trying to make a rule in terms of how you vote for your Representative? Because you would need to have one, for a single person to get that much sway. I don't like this idea, because it in no way forces that player with that much power, to work for the better good. Their only consequence would be what? Lynched the next Day for acting poorly with votes? But that would be further detriment to the Cave.

I do agree, that we should all be voting for who we think would do a good job; but who we think is an Orc first. Because an Elf could do a splendid job, but that is counterproductive.

But I have no clue about the alignment of my rep either (Cel). And you don't know what your rep's alignment is. And when it comes to hunches, we have zero kills and lynches to help us decide and haven't reached a stopping point (night) where we can go back and reread the day's action.

I never claimed that I knew for certain the alignment of who I voted for. However, I did give it thought - which is a difference between the votes. If people were unable to get information from other players in regards to their alignment, then what exactly is the point of having a Day phase? Hmm? You seem to think that information relies solely on what occurs during Night. Which is ridiculously .. flawed and lazy. Your entire stance is rather odd, and it definitely shows you are up to something - but when aren't you. It also seems like you are faking here, and I question how it is productive and good for the Cave.

Oh come on, you walked straight into a point I made earlier- the fact that other votes have merely been, as you stated, a reaction or counter to the first votes! Basically, you're basing your actions upon something that you say shouldn't have happened in the first place, which means that had everyone followed your advice and not jumped the gun, you wouldn't have had any reason to vote later yourself, thus proving me correct when it comes to how incredibly flimsy our day 1 rep voting is going to be.

I said my vote in particular. I didn't vote solely on the thought of trying to counter what you and your lackeys tried doing. I also thought of alignment, and who I thought was a possible Orc. Again, a rather large difference.


I think the phorc/Loslote/Sally triangle needs to be figured out at one point or another, otherwise it will continue to vie for attention.


Currently wouldn't vote for:
Folwren
Lommy
Nog
Shasta
Wilwa
Dun
Mira

Every one else is pretty iffy, or no read. I have Mira up there because I think she was in a 'no time, must vote' state of mind.

[Thinlómien]

Feeling tired and lazy. Shall go through the posting more or less (probably "less") carefully and then vote.

Un-reps, who would you like to see lynched toDay?

[Thinlómien]

Wait...

Lottie #9

This makes sense, and looks rather innocent of you, but I'm going be around, so Phantom, no vote for you.



...yet.

tp #10

And Lottie, really, there is no need to delay. Every last villager is going to vote me as representative today, as it would entertain the mods as well as be historic and funny. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I received all the rep votes every day of the contest. If the Sons win then all the orcs can say, "That blasted Phantom didn't vote well and lost it for us! Let's make fun of him!" And that would be great fun, of course. Or if the Sons lose then all the orcs can say, "Ha- I chose my rep well, didn't I?" And that would be fun as well.

Lottie #14

Or, of course, you turn out to be evil and utterly destroy us all. And then we can all go "oh, that Phantom!" and we'd all be having a right good time!

tp #17 and #18

PS If you haven't voted me as your representative yet, please do so. Let's make history.

Well no, but I would have a good time, so it all balances out, yes? So yeah, um, vote for me. Vote for me now.

Need a second opinion? Let's ask Emperor Palpatine-

Emperor Palpatine: "Do it!"

Lottie #19

I'm honestly considering it...I won't be able to get online until an hour before DL, and I'll probably not have much time to catch up, much less form opinions, and it is Day 1, after all...you know what, fine.

++The Puddintom for Representative

What the???

Lottie, I've heard your resonings but this is plain weird. Is your mind really that easily turned?

Btw if I may discuss phantom I'd like to say that he'd just love his fellow wolves to vote him as rep because
1) then he gets power and he probably believes to be the most able to use it in the wolf team anyway
and
2) then he has a good excuse not to vote his fellows for a lynch because he hates doing that.
Makes me think that if phantom dies and is proved a wolf, I would really look at Lottie, Sally and Mira. (Just imagine if they would be our four wolves! That would be almost ingenious in its absurdity.)

Back to reread...

[Thinlómien]

I like Eönwë's style except for how he keeps coming back to phantom.

Somehow my concentration is failing...

There really is something fishy in Celuien's manner. I think she is too calculationg and too captain obvious-ish.

Now I have reread up until the end of the first half of the Day. Currently feeling like voting Lottie, or possibly splitting to give one gut-feeling vote to Cel.


edit: xed with everyone

[Nogrod]

Hah. I finally got a place to sit and to plug my laptop into the mains...

So here's what little I managed to write down while being at home - with a few addenda skimming fast what has happened meanwhile...


Depending on the answer the phantom might have given to my questions (if he has), I’m pending my opinion whether to call for the “historical feat Fea would love so much” and lynch him on D1, or whether to give him a chance to show his qualities this time as well…

ADD: I'm probably not advicing anyone to lynch him but I might complain about his latest explanation anyway.


I think I see where you tp are coming from, but that doesn’t remove the fact that Sally’s vote was soo stupid. I will not vote for Sally for a representative in this game. I can’t let that kind of judgements decide on life and death issues – even if it was made on D1. Really. That’s a promise. Sorry Sally, but you're too reckless. Your try of turning the gaze on Shasta and Nerwen after your return was kind of pathetic – and don’t say you just joked.

I don’t mean playing werewolf should be a grave matter or that winning is important (actually I do prefer a good game lost to a lousy game won), but one should at least try to play by the rules – in their spirit, not only by the book. Light-heartedness can be fun and constructive at the same time. Now it feels Sally just tried to duck the fence from the lowest point to get through to the next Day by allying herself with tp who she knew would then talk on behalf of her if she flattered him enough…

Lottie seems to go to and fro in the beginning and her efforts of trying to cover tp (and her own choice) later have been eyebrow-raising to say the least. The basic problem here is that I know I normally end up suspecting Lottie when she’s innocent and so I’m wavering a bit here. But really, Lottie can’t defend tp for his arguments “containing no illogical jumps” (as she says in response to Foley). Actually this way of clinging to an explanation of her vote provided by the phantom in retrospect looks pretty fishy – whatever phantom’s role.

I do like Nerwen’s attitude but there are two little things you might say are irrelevant, but I find them disturbing enough: she calls those she decides to suspect “orclings” and the suggestion of someone signaling to others when she tried to suspect Lottie is quite odd indeed… like she tried just to add on top of some already existing general suspicions with no real basis…

ADD: Also her latest open suspicion on Mira is more like an easy throw away than anything she would have really contemplated on. I dislike Mira’s vote as well, but really, it looks like she just didn’t read the thread…

And then there’s this.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Maybe he means he can't be around?

Now this looks a bit odd indeed. Why to run on defence of Boro on such a minor point? I mean the wolves oftentimes feel the threats to be more major than they are (everyone who has been a wolf knows that) and thence they feel the need to defend themselves or their friends in situations where no specific “defence” is needed (see the “confused” smilie there).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Then to the rep choices... I kind of like them, but I have a feeling there's at least one if not two SoE among them simply because so many people I think innocent are NOT among the reps.

Interesting point from Lommy. I do belong to those people who think we can lynch a villain on D1 in a normal game, and that those who diss D1’s are more often than not villains themselves (villains love randomness – or talking about the randomness of D1 - as it leaves no trace to them), but in this kind of a game I think it would turn out actually good to see one or two enemies on the lines of the representatives on D1. Maybe even toMorrow. Whatever. The point is we should choose also the enemies as representatives on D1 and not only those leaning on the success of the village: that’s the best way to put them into danger. On D1 – and possibly on D2 – probably not much later in the game.

Remember the first things we can read in any way are the choices of the representatives. If all the reps are innocents, and an innocent is lynched, we’re quite easily led to concentrate only on innocents toMorrow. Therefore at this point (at this point, mind you) we need some SoE’s for representatives. I think you Lommy see this, so why bother wailing on it?

ADD:

Originally Posted by Boro

I'm not going to lobby for anyone's lynching when I aint got a clue.

Being a bit too modest or withholding something are you? Really. This just doesn't make sense. And let's not argue about the meaning of the term "lobbying".

EDIT: X'd with Lommy & phantom

[Kath]

Ahem ... hi. Apologies for limited participation toDay. I will read and comment briefly but it won't be particularly in depth!

[Eönwë]

So... finally caught up... sort of.

Comments to come.

[Isabellkya]

I find that Boro's stance on essentially staying out of things, since he does not personally have a vote. To be rather copping-out and taking the lazy, "don't want to get my hands dirty" route. What is the difference between lobbying with a vote and lobbying without a vote?

I think that ultimately, we should still play the same way as normal. Just with some not having a vote for this part of the Day. Since the opinions of the Non-Reps still matter. I've been in the same situation before, and it can be easy to just 'la la la' away, basically.

Shasta. Why do you want to see Sally lynched?

@ Phantom. I am not opposed to a Boro lynch for the reasoning at the top of this post.
Why those choices in your #275 list?

I believe Lommy voted correctly. Not sure about Greenie's and Nerwen's. If we are using both/all votes for one person, to we need to signify that somehow, like voting for them twice. Or does once, as in Greenie's case, automatically count as both/all?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were.

That would be the assumption that he's the best man for the job, yes?

Seriously: unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

So, there is some logic there, but in fact only Lottie used this argument. Sally voted him based on what was apparently a misapprehension, and Mira seems to have given him the third vote as a joke.

Also, Lottie, why aren't you worried by phantom's promise not to lynch those who voted for him?

EDIT:X'd with the orc himself.