WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So you were saying that!

EDIT:X'd with Sally.

Let me try this again. Am I happy that an innocent is dead. No. I just felt that his innocence proved the reason I voted for BG. Which just happens to be why people were going after me yesterDay.

[autume98]

Did I miss something? How do we know Hestia is Seer?

[Inziladun]

Nice! No wolf-kill and possibly two legitimate Seers. I do tend to lean toward Boro being the false one at this point.

A few thoughts about last Night:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Nope, don't really buy the theory that Autume's a wolf.

Don't buy the theory that Mac's a wolf.

Definitely don't buy the theory that Steve is a wolf.

I, however, am the wolfiest wolf that ever howled at the moon, therefore:

++Rikae

Let's just take this as an admission and lynch her. Any takers?

Originally Posted by autume98

Classic! Can I just say I really like your vote.

I can totally see why you did it though. No one has jumped out at me as a wolf.

A pointless vote on Day 2 meets your approval, does it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For my own part, I do think the fact that the Seer voted Steve while making the cryptic "neg 4" remark– and got killed in the Night may be significant. I've said why I don't think Boro actually dreamed an Eonwolf, but if such he is, it might be enough if the pack thought he had.

Well, that "Neg 4" bit was what in the end induced me to vote for Steve. I couldn't see why Boro would have said something so emphatic unless he knew something (or thought he did).

Originally Posted by autume98

I'm thankful for the more time we had toDay, and then this idea hits me. Why not lynch someone else, and have the Hunter go after Eonwe. If he dies than we know he's a wolf. The big flaw we'd have to pull this all of in nine minutes, and the Hunter would have to see this post. So basically a bad plan this late toDay.

This looks like a ploy to get two innocents lynched. You yourself kept saying over and over you thought Eönwë was innocent. Yet you were ok with the Hunter killing him?

And toDay:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

And further development on this theme - both Mac and Nogs seem to have stopped going for each other and both turned their sights on Lottie. I need to look at her more closely myself, I don’t think we’ve ever played together so I don’t have a real feel for her at all.

That's interesting. Mac also stated yesterDay he would not be voting for Nog.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Nogrod, lots of your reasoning this morning seems sensible to me (result of a good night’s sleep?) but this I would query quite strenuously:


Actually , unless I have really misunderstood your point, it is not general knowledge that any of them were innocents except Eonwe. How do YOU know? It is a shame that you're not around to answer this...

Another interesting observation. I'd also like to hear his explanation of that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

#565 revisted

Nogrod's Guide to Suspicious Behaviour

1. Jumping on bandwagons


2. Not jumping on bandwagons



3. Voting for known innocents


4. Not voting for them



5. Looking for alternative candidates


6. Not looking for them



Nogrod's Fork sure has a lot of tines, hasn't it?

There seems to be a good deal of truth in this. It seems as if anyone can be suspicious to Nog in this game, for any reason, depending on the moment.

Originally Posted by autume98

Let me try this again. Am I happy that an innocent is dead. No. I just felt that his innocence proved the reason I voted for BG. Which just happens to be why people were going after me yesterDay.

However, like I said, you were on board with the Hunter killing him.

Originally Posted by autume98

Did I miss something? How do we know Hestia is Seer?

Said so in the narrative.

x/d with Rikae

[the phantom]

First, Nog is flailing again.

Lottie and Nerwen already pointed out many problems with his arguments, and as far as his vote is concerned... Sorry, but after the events of Day 2, Lottie is about as innocent a person as we have around here. (And no, I'm not going to explain that remark, so don't ask. If you view me as innocent then just take that one on faith.)

Mac, in answer to you- due to the way this village is set up (it's very unique with all the gifted roles and the like), I am playing in a much different mode, particularly early on. Now that we're three days into the game I imagine I'll normalize a bit (as far as suspecting people), but my first two days was primarily trying to identify gifteds I could work with and not lynch them rather than looking so much for suspects, especially with all the people who could swap affiliations. Frankly the village was too large and complex, and I wanted to wait until we were at a more managable number to really roll my sleeves up. And hey- I like where we stand, and I feel I have a bead on a few roles.

Originally Posted by Mac

Replying to my question, he pulls Nienna out of his hat and is willing to shoot in the dark with Lottie.

Nienna wasn't completely out of a hat. Out of the low posters (Kath, Meeper, Sally, and Folwren) she was the one I had the least feel for (I had said specifically earlier that I liked Folwren and Meeper), and I was keen to take a shot at a submarine since I figured I might not get a feel for them at any point anyway. And as far as Lottie goes, I only was willing to take a shot at her until she showed up, at which point her defense completely took her off the table so far as I was concerned.

And your quotes of me where I'm letting you take the lead and I'm "keeping clean"- instead read them as me trying to say, "Hey, Mac, seriously, I'm on board with you. I trust you. Make the call." Not to mention that doing such a thing isn't "keeping clean" at all, but quite clearly letting someone else take the risk. Honestly, who exactly is going to be fooled by such completely obvious posturing?

And the reason there was no mention of Nog any more was because you said you wanted to give him another day! Once you said that I left him alone so far as I remember. Fact is I thought you were innocent and also thought I had your possible role narrowed quite far down, and was attempting to come on board with you. And no, I'm not putting you at increased risk by saying that, as everyone is gifted at this point.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This looks like a ploy to get two innocents lynched. You yourself kept saying over and over you thought Eönwë was innocent. Yet you were ok with the Hunter killing him?

That was an illogical plan that came to me as I was typing. It wasn't a ploy. It would've been a ploy if I pushed for it. In the end I negate it. With what u pointed out I would've negate it after that too. I don't want to lynch innocents.

I am beginning to wonder about Rikae's vote. I know I made a comment about it, but the first sentence was all said in fun...nothing was meant by it. My second line was about the fact that I wasn't sure who guilty at the time. Even then I didn't deem it appropriate to throw away my vote. I would take a look at her, but I have to be at work. If no one else does before I get back then I will.

[satansaloser2005]

I think the only one who wants to take a look at Rikae is Mac.


In seriousness now, I think Tum's being a squirm nugget. (Yes, nuget. Shut up.) She seems very frustrated misunderstood new kid but it's not frustrated misunderstood innocent new kid. Her comments on Steve (despite her attempt to clean them up) and her general lack of proper....anything?....make me think that she is in fact a wolf (or evil on some level, or just plain not out for village victory like I am, and I don't like people who disagree with me ).


I still think my Hestia plan is valid. Not only do I think it would be nice to know that Hestia is te false seer (or the real one, if that's the case), I also think Nog's guilty. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear in my original Nog plan post, but he's either unable to help the village -not his fault, but dying and revealing information could help us out considerably- or he doesn't want to help the village. Either way, let's get rid of him and make him as useful as possible.

[Rikae]

autume, if you want to try to get me lynched, that's all well and good, but can I just ask that you don't use chatspeak while doing so? That would really be adding insult to injury.

EDIT: X'd with Sally - more insults, hey.

[the phantom]

lol, Rikae, r u serius?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by the phantom

lol, Rikae, r u serius?

Glirdan, I would like to use my assassination power on Phantom. What? I don't have any? Bah.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

EDIT: X'd with Sally - more insults, hey.

That wasn't meant in a rude way. That was meant in a way I can't put on the Downs. See the dude? He's....well he's very....never mind, you get it.


EDIT: x'd with Phantom. I will smite thee with an epic smite (if I had such skills)!

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Sally, underlining mine

I still think my Hestia plan is valid. Not only do I think it would be nice to know that Hestia is te false seer (or the real one, if that's the case), I also think Nog's guilty. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear in my original Nog plan post, but he's either unable to help the village -not his fault, but dying and revealing information could help us out considerably- or he doesn't want to help the village. Either way, let's get rid of him and make him as useful as possible.

Hmm. While I'm not sure about Nog myself and while I think his death would shed some light on other things, I distrust Sally's idea of offhandedly killing him while he's not properly present. Like, not the idea itself so much, but the way she talks about it. Especially in the underlined part she sounds not only opportunistic but downright bloodthirsty. It's rather like she saw a great opportunity to get rid of Nog (ie. he's unable to put up a huge self-defense show) and decided to use it seemingly for common good. Now I believe an innocent Sally could certainly come up with something of that kind, but I'm not sure she'd introduce her idea quite like that.


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae, Nerwen, Sally and Rikae

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sally

I still think my Hestia plan is valid. Not only do I think it would be nice to know that Hestia is te false seer (or the real one, if that's the case), I also think Nog's guilty.

But Sally, if we lose Hestia in the process, that doesn't do us a lot of good, does it? Let's say Hestia's a true seer, and Nog is a wolf - best case scenario. He dies, and if he has a lover, said lover is on the side of the village with special powers. Still, as soon as the remaining wolves have a chance, they'll take her out. But what if he's a wolf's lover? By lynching him we'd give special powers to a wolf, who would certainly use them to take out Hestia, right? And by not lynching him, we wouldn't learn anything.
And if Nog is an innocent, we've flushed out one of our seers for nothing. Now, if Hestia got her powers by picking the remaining seer and we find she's the genuine article, we then know we have another seer we can trust anyway, but if she got them by picking Boro, we'll have flushed out our ONLY TRUE seer. Soo... I think Hestia should only reveal, if she does want to do that, if she picked the other seer. If she picked Boro, she should keep quiet, as she may be too valuable to sacrifice. Just my two cents.

[Rikae]

Ok, something I noticed in Lottie's Tum-analysis:

Originally Posted by Lottie

And suggests that he might have been hinting as a lover. Actually, I think she was the first to come up with this theory, which looks much better for her.

Just one example of several; apparently Lottie's suspicion of Tum is based heavily on the assumption that Mac is evil. Slip? What is this? Nope, Lottie, we can't know this "look\s good" without knowing Mac's role... do you?

So yeah, there is analysis in the post, despite what Nog and Nerwen say; yet it's illogical at best and suspicious at worst. Makes me wonder about them, as well.

Now, as for Sally's Hestia plan... we've already discussed how someone protected every night can be taken out by a revenge-kill, so no, I'm not sure that's the best strategy.

Hmmm... and to Nog, though he isn't around, I'd just like to say: when have I ever been one to jump on bandwagons? I don't approve of them. If my vote makes a difference, I may vote for someone who has votes on a weak suspicion to save someone I think is innocent, sure, but when there's an unstoppable stampede toward someone I don't think should be lynched, would you have me join in just to be - what? Inconspicuous? Nope. Not how I roll.

I'm afraid I have a lot on my plate today, so I can't promise the volume of posting I've had up until now, but I'll do my best.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Just one example of several; apparently Lottie's suspicion of Tum is based heavily on the assumption that Mac is evil. Slip? What is this? Nope, Lottie, we can't know this "look\s good" without knowing Mac's role... do you?

So yeah, there is analysis in the post, despite what Nog and Nerwen say.

Eh? I don't think I commented on that post at all. Tell the truth I haven't read it properly yet.
EDIT:X'd with Zil; added comment.

[Rikae]

Sorry Nerwen - I seem to have gotten something confused. When I went back over the posts I couldn't even figure out where I got that.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ok, something I noticed in Lottie's Tum-analysis:

Just one example of several; apparently Lottie's suspicion of Tum is based heavily on the assumption that Mac is evil. Slip? What is this? Nope, Lottie, we can't know this "look\s good" without knowing Mac's role... do you?

Now that I have waded through Lottie's autumalysis, I believe she just meant that it "looked much better" because tum actually came up with that particular theory herself, whereas most of the time she's been like that one spambot that kept quoting other posts and adding "I agree with you".

While we're on the subject– Lottie, that is a horribly confusing way to set out your analysis. I think I know why you did it that way, but honestly, I'm not surprised so many people gave up in despair.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by autume98

Let me try this again. Am I happy that an innocent is dead. No. I just felt that his innocence proved the reason I voted for BG. Which just happens to be why people were going after me yesterDay.

tum, it would be fair enough to argue the next Day, after Eonwe was dead, that his innocence made you look better.

It's quite another to say this about a still-living lynch-candidate:

Originally Posted by tum

Now if Eonwe turns out to be a wolf then I know that will look REALLY bad. So I'm really hoping that Eonwe is someone good.

Do you really still not understand the difference?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Basically, you never hope that you're right about someone's innocence and that they'll be lynched. The game doesn't work like that. Unless you're evil.

Yes, but then, how often do baddies straight-out say, "Ooo, I do hope we lynch an innocent toDay"? They think it, of course, but they tend to keep that to themselves, rather.

I mean, I'm not saying what she said doesn't sound bad, but it's also just... weird.

Is it possible that tum is an innocent who still hasn't quite grasped the idea that WW is a team-game, and thinks it's about winning by herself? Some newbies do see it that way... but then I know she's played several games before this.

EDIT:X'd since Sally at #599.

[satansaloser2005]

Well from RL experience I know she's far from stupid, so....I don't know. I'm pretty sure she's of the furry variety. After all, this would only be her second (real) game as a baddie, so I could see some wolf cub mistakes like this still happening.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

tum, it would be fair enough to argue the next Day, after Eonwe was dead, that his innocence made you look better.

It's quite another to say this about a still-living lynch-candidate:

Do you really still not understand the difference?

Yes, but then, how often do baddies straight-out say, "Ooo, I do hope we lynch an innocent toDay"? They think it, of course, but they tend to keep that to themselves, rather.

I mean, I'm not saying what she said doesn't sound bad, but it's also just... weird.

Is it possible that tum is an innocent who still hasn't quite grasped the idea that WW is a team-game, and thinks it's about winning by herself? Some newbies do see it that way... but then I know she's played several games before this.

I really think that you are looking into the wording too much. I never meant anything bad out of it. It's like when you're getting blamed for something that you didn't do, and then it comes to light later on that you were right. It was a bad thing for me to do. What I did was a lapse in judgment. I'll try not to do this in the future.

I know that this is a team-game, and I DO want to get the wolves.

Edit: x-ed everyone since my last post

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by autume98

I really think that you are looking into the wording too much. I never meant anything bad out of it. It's like when you're getting blamed for something that you didn't do, and then it comes to light later on that you were right. It was a bad thing for me to do. What I did was a lapse in judgment. I'll try not to do this in the future.

I know that this is a team-game, and I DO want to get the wolves.

Edit: x-ed everyone since my last post

By wording, do you mean the post itself? Because I can't think of any other way to interpert that post than a suspicious one. You say that you're being blamed for something you didn't do, but then say that it was bad anyway. Wolves are the ones who worry about how they come across to other people, Tum. Not innocents. And you've made it very clear that you care over much about how you come across.

EDIT: xed with Keepandir of Dol Mira

[Nienna]

List:

Very Suspicious:
Tum

Sort of Suspicious
Zil - for reasons mentioned in my analysis post
Lalaith - her most recent vote seems a little off... maybe it's because I haven't seen much to suspect Lottie
Phantom - something about him today has been rubbing me the wrong way... maybe it's his assault on Sally which I think is very unfounded or his strong desire to see me lynched...

Hesitant about: I need to look into these players more... they are coming under heavy suspicion and I want to check it out myself
Mac
Nog
Nerwen

Need more from:
Kath
Mira
Folwren
Shasta

feeling ok:
Wilwa
Lottie
Greenie
Rikae

Pretty sure as innocent:
Sally

Edit: Crossed since Mira

[autume98]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Oooo I can answer that!

I want to lynch you. Why? Because I think you're evil.

Reason?

Originally Posted by Rikae

...you've given a general impression of following wherever you think the trend may be headed (your sudden "suspicion" of me seemed to be a direct response to Inzil's questioning of you...Plus, you used chatspeak.

So I had to go back to see what you were talking about. And found this:

Originally Posted by tum

That was an illogical plan that came to me as I was typing. It wasn't a ploy. It would've been a ploy if I pushed for it. In the end I negate it. With what you pointed out I would've negate it after that too. I don't want to lynch innocents.

I am beginning to wonder about Rikae's vote. I know I made a comment about it, but the first sentence was all said in fun...nothing was meant by it. My second line was about the fact that I wasn't sure who guilty at the time. Even then I didn't deem it appropriate to throw away my vote. I would take a look at her, but I have to be at work. If no one else does before I get back then I will.

The first paragraph is in direct response to what Inzil said. The second paragraph had absolutely nothing to do with what Inzil said. I should've separated it out a little bit better. I can see where you get that it's a direct response to what Inzil said. However I'm not sure how you get that I was following the trend with your example since no where in his post did he say you were suspicious.

Edit: x-ed with everyone since my last post

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Loslote

By wording, do you mean the post itself? Because I can't think of any other way to interpert that post than a suspicious one. You say that you're being blamed for something you didn't do, but then say that it was bad anyway. Wolves are the ones who worry about how they come across to other people, Tum. Not innocents. And you've made it very clear that you care over much about how you come across.

The only reason I care is because I don't want another innocent to get lynched tonight. Not enough wolf blood has been shed this game. I can see where you are coming from though.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by autume98

The first paragraph is in direct response to what Inzil said. The second paragraph had absolutely nothing to do with what Inzil said. I should've separated it out a little bit better.

Yeah, if you had, it would have looked less suspicious. Next time you're a wolf, you might want to remember that.

And you were going with the trend, in this case, in the sense that, as I recall, you were being questioned for praising my vote (which I don't really understand, since self-votes are so thoroughly cool ); plus Inzil jokingly suggested lynching me earlier, based on that same vote. So yes, I do see a connection; not a very logical one, but no less logical than a lot of your other behavior.

[Nogrod]

Reading the few first posts and stalling majesticallly...

Originally Posted by Lottie on her Tum copying

“Okay. I think it's likely that she's a wolf. In fact, I think it's probable. If you saw no points in my post, I don't know what to tell you. I wrote down what I saw, and made points for and (more often) against her innocence.”

Sorry, you just describe what she is saying, you’re giving up 0,5% your own… You just say: she said x did Y and didn't appreciate it... Really. Some real effort, please.

Originally Posted by Lottie

“I was going to vote for one of the people I'd thought rationally about, rather than a last-minute "hey, she exists - let's kill her" type bandwagon.”

Why didn’t you protest or let us know of that yesterday? Did you just come up with it? (Nicely done). Why didn't you say - if you were so sure - "hey guys, here's the case against Nogrod I have and you should believe it too after I presented it to you!" Let me tell you why you didn't... You didn't have it as it was all thin air; and anyway you would have tried to build it, it would have been plain false... It's hard to be a wolf who wishes to take the forefront. It actually takes more effort... So back to the boot camp Lottie, try even. I'd hate to die to someone saying "I don't like him" (as you said - nevertheless how you protest, but you said that. And that's the best argument you've made thus far)

So sad that kind of arguments seem to work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

“Isn't this paragraph self-contradictory? By your own logic, Nog, the wolves had no reason to be active in the voting.”

No. Or yes. I mean they had no urge to save their friends aka. they could be relaxed – that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t drive the voting in the way they wished – like a host of you voting to let me live and thus making me look you guys more nicely. And it works, even if I try to fight against my urge to think positively of you who kept me alive… That is such a sham Nerwen I really am starting to suspect more again... "Needs to be" is a different thing from "wants to be". You can be when you don't have to... With no problem around the lynching (no mates in the fray) you can either drive for someone you'd like to see lynched - or someone whose lynch would benefit you - or defending one whom might benefit you... or whatever, maybe just toss the coin? And really, you're grasping at straws here - and wasting my time as well, as I see now.

I never specified who were the suspicious ones and who were the innocents - because I JUST DON'T FREAKIN' KNOW. You might, or why else do you require me that without giving the answers yourself?

As I said, anyone of you, but not all.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

“And who else was even talking about him being the Cursed yesterDay? I don't say it was never mentioned in passing, but I thought the main question was whether he might be a wolf.”

That’s what you say… Maybe it was not suitable for the wolves to talk about it? Maybe it was even bad for them to talk about it? Blah... You love to keep that interpretation of the reality, but why? I'm not answering that, you should.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

“I hereby dub this type of reasoning "Nogrod's Fork".

I do hereby dub this type of argument as the "Australian stab the sleeping"-argument. It’s closer to the truth as your dubbing – with better grounding - that being more or less in my case.

How does that sound? I did manage to get online… Sorry to ruin your plan. And really that's nasty. Are you, with your mate Lottie, that desperate of doing away with me? I'd think you'd have other problems as everyone can't be wolves - or do you just think I'm the easy target as I'm not around to talk for myself? You two really took your chances after you heard I was going to be away, didn't you? Hadn't you anything better to do?

Am I hitting the right targets? Does it hurt that much?

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Nogrod, lots of your reasoning this morning seems sensible to me (result of a good night’s sleep?) but this I would query quite strenuously:
Quote:

Actually , unless I have really misunderstood your point, it is not general knowledge that any of them were innocents except Eonwe. How do YOU know? It is a shame that you're not around to answer this...

Well I know because I know my role, and I said twice that I do not expect you to trust it – but after my death. Sorry if two times were not enough.

And there were no others than us three! (Beigei and Eonwë on D1 and Eonwë & me on D2). All innocents – I know that. You know that only up to me. Get used to it.


Oh my, once again, hey Nerwen, get real! English is not my first language, but you should not be allowed to put just anything into my mouth because of that! Really. I’m looking at the nearest object to throw at you right now.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

“Well, maybe it's a language problem, again. But he does sound like he's saying it was a common consensus yesterDay that Steve was a likely Cursed, and it certainly wasn't.”

What? If you have complaints to how your mates perform during the Day when you can't advice them, keep it to them at Nights. Show me someone who knew Steve's role except Steve himself? You knew it? "He certainly wasn't" like you knew it yesterDay, or what are you trying to say? So just stop it then. It was an open thing and we all had our different thoughts about the probability of it, but you can't claim - but in hindsight - to have been 100% sure either way. And I never claimed it was either way, but I gave quite a long arguments why it could be one way or another.

Where were your arguments yesterDay? I mean no hindsight but your arguments before you knew afterwards how it was?

And this then...

Originally Posted by Nerwen

[Nogrod's Fork sure has a lot of tines, hasn't it?

Now this sure gets out of the bounds of ridiculousness itself... Let me see how you put into one shortish post most of the people and why you suspect them! Just let me see you try it without breaking the rule you just laid on my post! And don't use more than twenty minutes into it.
(so do not suspect different people for different reasons there – and be definitive with all your suspicions)

– heh, be a wolf.,. No one else can be that secure and straightforwards - and logical.

Okay. Sorry. I'm really sorry. But reading this thread feels like walking an ever raising climb, rocks falling down to you every minute, and the guys around you whom you thought to climb the mountain trying to drag you down... or just perceiving those guys and none else.

Okay, I’ts getting late and I’m getting more and more annoyed with this… Maybe I just go to sleep and let you do this yourselves - anyway, if you lynch me I can get away from this nauseating problematics of trying to find a net-connection every-other day. You clearly have the wolves - or very ill-reasoned innocents to call the shots. At least the early shots of the Day.

I’m going to have a cigarette and then maybe I’ll read the rest, or then will not bother. I sadly started by way of commenting on every issue that looked like it was worth of commenting - and now I'm just out of any touch to anything that has happened... Okay, I need to try and read the Day through, but I'm not sure I'm able to give any decent comments after that...

But I'll try.