WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Inziladun]

Nog makes good points about Eönwë. His remark about Dionysus, which I took as a throw-away at the time, wouldn't seem to have any innocent context (innocent, as in meaningless) here. Why not just say "I'm ill"?
I'm not sure what to do based on that, either though. I'd like to hear what steve has to say about it.

[Rikae]

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink."

Admin thread says:

Dionysus – God of Wine – Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.
And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16?

[Nienna]

The Steve-slip is an interesting thing. It seems a little bit too bold unless he wants to be lynched so he isn't night-killed. Hmmm it bears close watching and I will definitely be waiting for that explanation as long as it doesn't come too late in the Day.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nienna

The Steve-slip is an interesting thing. It seems a little bit too bold unless he wants to be lynched so he isn't night-killed.

The problem for Dionysos actually is, how to get the wolves to pick him - for the wolf-role sure is what most would go for... So he has to do something to get their eyes on him - and the wolves would love an added one into their numbers as well, mind you.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The problem for Dionysos actually is, how to get the wolves to pick him - for the wolf-role sure is what most would go for... So he has to do something to get their eyes on him - and the wolves would love an added one into their numbers as well, mind you.

This reminds me of a discussion we had in another game - and I think Steve was there too. Some of us would feel obliged, as a cursed villager, to make ourselves known so that the village could lynch us if turned.

If Steve is the cursed, chances are the wolves won't turn him now, anyway, since he'd be toast immediately and they'd probably rather get rid of an innocent during the night than turn a cursed who will die the next day. So really, he helped the village whether he intended to or not.

[Rikae]

Incidentally, because of the above, I tend to think there isn't much point in a cursed knowing they're cursed. Either they aren't really playing as an ordo when they technically are, or they don't get to play as a wolf if turned.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16?

Welcome the pro crime-investigator! *still reading through the thread to find any hints, back soon*

X'd with Nienna

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Welcome the pro crime-investigator! *still reading through the thread to find any hints, back soon*

For the record, I'm anti-crime.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

For the record, I'm anti-crime.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.

That's not what I meant. I mean, if the cursed is turned during the night, will the narration indicate this? If so, we can just lynch Eonwe after the cursed is turned, if he is.

Originally Posted by Inzil

And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16?

Is he? Didn't know that. I believe in the UK the drinking age is 18...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

That's not what I meant. I mean, if the cursed is turned during the night, will the narration indicate this? If so, we can just lynch Eonwe after the cursed is turned, if he is.

I don't know the answer to that. If there's no kill and we aren't told the reason why, it would make it bloody hard to figure out. Was the Cursed found? Did the Ranger or Guardian Hunter block it? I'll ask on the Admin Thread.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Is he? Didn't know that. I believe in the UK the drinking age is 18...

Meta, I know. I remember from the birthday thread.

x/d with Nog

[Blind Guardian]

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Xed with everyone since 134

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.

That's okay. I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

[Loslote]

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned. As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.

As a side note, if the Ranger or Hunting Guardian protect the Cursed from a wolf attack, they're not Turned, are they? So we could, theoretically, keep Steve on our side as long as we wanted.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned.

Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.

Originally Posted by Loslote

As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.

However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.


However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

[Nogrod]

Well then.

I'm pretty sure Eonwë is the cursed villager and he wishes to be a wolf.

Do you remember his first post

Originally Posted by Eonwë #23

Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

And then there is the Dionysos-stuff.

Both scream "see who I am wolves!" to me. So he went all he could trying to get their attention and to make him their target.

The problem is as the rules say:

Originally Posted by The Rules

Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

That seems to me quite clear. Dionysos knows about his role and can have a mindset of a wannabe-wolf (which to me seems to be the case) - and I share my feeling with Rikae here that this is not a good practise as it makes the cursed most likely into a cobbler from the beginning of the game (there are different cursed to be sure, but that's the average reaction).

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. So Dionysos is a threat to the end of the game and after all this row it's pretty likely that if Eonwë isn't a wolf they will try him anyway. So it's just how probable we think his role as Dionysos is?

Some words on others in a moment, a vote, and then to sleep...

[Loslote]

Wilwa - seems to be helpful and all that. Not going to vote her; talkative people are awesome.

Kath - haven't gotten a sense of her yet, but not going to vote for her because I've never played with her before.

Boro - not ringing many bells, so probably won't vote for him toDay.

Keepandir of Dol Mira - not much to go on.

Zil - seems to be pretty innocent. Not going to vote for him toDay.

BeiGei - looks pretty normal. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Lottie - is awesome, like normal. Not going to vote for her toDay.

Eonwe - possible Cursed; probably won't vote for him toDay because he's probably not a wolf.

Nienna - has been pretty quiet. Possibly submarine; possibly busy. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Nerwen - seems pretty innocent. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Folwren - not getting much of a sense for her, either, but again, have never played with her and thus will not vote for her.

Tum - I have no idea. Possible submarine. Might vote for her toDay, because of her quietness and because of her lack of contribution when she does post.

Lalaith - see Kath and Foley.

Greenie - seems pretty innocent, but I'm not at all sure of anything about her. Probably won't vote her, though.

Rikae - makes sense and seems like normal Rikae. Won't vote for her toDay.

Shasta - he exists??

Mac - feels slightly off in all his posts, and isn't really making many helpful posts. Might vote for him.

Nog - makes sense, makes good points, is being logical, not going to vote for him toDay.

Phantom - I have no idea. Is definitely contributing. I've never played with him, so I'm not going to vote him toDay.

Sally - haven't seen anything really off, so probably won't vote for her toDay.

So...Mac or Tum are likely to get my vote toDay. Pretty much no one else.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

There's too much talk about the lovers. They have to be loyal to their wolves (once they know them), then they're back on the village's side once the wolf is dead. While the innocent lovers can be useful, they can also be problematic, so lynching them isn't that bad. However, children, with all the lover talk, don't forget that lynching a wolf is still much, much better!
That's all there is to say, so let's move on.

There's also too much talk about the false seer.

The Lovers and the false Seer are surely the two biggest complications of this game, not to mention the fact that the former could potentially lead us to their wolf-counterparts. Yet, you don't want them talked about?

Then there's this sequence:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Mac - Makes sense, but also makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Especially the following:So he's implying that Nerwen is Hades (ergo a wolf), but doesn't make a move to actually start suspecting her? If you think you've caught a wolf, why just mention it offhand instead of making a case and trying to get your supposed wolf lynched? Fishy, I'd say.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

(...)

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

(...)

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

So there's two little oddities here:

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. .

Are you sure? Where did you get this?

[Nogrod]

Nerwen's Hades declaration really stands out there and makes her my number one wolf-suspect. On top of that there were only Boro's Zeus-comments (which make no sense for a wolf or a lover to make) and Eonwë's Dionysos-reference (which was way later than the initial banter). And this is a game where several people would need to hint at their mates or possible allies! So it would be incredible if no-one tried to make a contact!

Of others I'm more confused about.

Lottie I remember suspecting for wrong reasons before but there is something in her posts that I can't quite put my finger on which makes me suspect her (fex. how she commented on the Eonwë-issue, but there was more as well, earlier).

Moreover, Rikae is spot on to the game and I really enjoyed her little argument with tp, but there's something in her posting as well that makes me a bit nervous (like always), namely the way she brought the Boro-issue back or how she turned around on it - or how she reacted to the Eonwë discussion. It's just a bad hunch maybe.

Also what Mac said about Greenie (and she said about him) - heh, at least I don't think they are Zeus and Hera... even if the arguing might be as like them in the stories... (not probably voting either of them, though)

Then there are the cohorts of those who have said little of any real value (eg. leading up to new ways of looking things or discussing things - or even contributing their own in some discussions). It's always so hard with them. Nothing to say when there is nothing said. But if you just want to "check" someone you can have no read on, you should do it earlier than later as the going gets tougher by Day and many feel - justifiably - that we can not afford blind checkings later on.

I'll take a fast tour around to check those less contributing ones before making any vote. Meanwhile it would be nice to hear from you others. It's such quiet.

Heh, talk of the devil... x'd with four last posts...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

Or didn't think anyone would notice it as you couldn't know people would start focusing on that later on the Day?

I went through the thread - not close reading but skimming it through - to find any hints about Hades (death), Hephaistos (forging, smiths), Aphrodite (love) or Dionysos (drinking) and sadly found only those that have been already mentioned, mainly Eonwë's and Nerwen's comments. So the lovers have been pretty careful.

Well, there is one good side to this: after all this talk and searching for hints they need to be much more careful in the future and the task of the lovers finding their mates will be harder - which reduces their power considerably as most their effects take place only after they have found one another.

[Macalaure]

It's funny how toDay's debates can be divided up so nicely.


The initial stage:

(Almost) only bantering:
Loslote, BG, Eonwe, Autume (her comment about the usefulness of Day1 and then admitting that she forgot you can lynch people looks bad)

phantom
doing phantommy things, less annoying than usual.

Nerwen
drops the name Hades in her first post, amidst banter. Not much helpfulness after it

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

Wilwa
sensible, but Wilwolf is sensible, too, so I'm wary. Certainly not going to vote her toDay, though.

Foley
I don't remember her style, to be honest. She seems earnest in her attempt to contribute, so I'm fine with her for now.

Rikae
is hard to read

Inzil
not sure, but vaguely bad feeling

Feel fine:
Lalaith, Greenie, Nogrod

Barely there:
Sally, Kath, Keeper of Mirandir


The "let's talk about roles"-stage

I really dislike excessive role and rule discussion. It enables wolves to participate without actually doing anything while innocents are occupied with something other than finding them.

People getting themselves dragged into lovers/seers/whatnot discussion:
phantom, Foley, Wilwa, Nog, Nerwen, Inzil, Eonwe, Rikae, Nienna, Loslote.

Out of these, Nerwen, Inzil, Nienna and Loslote seem most suspicious, since they're staying around the fringes and/or haven't contributed much else otherwise.


The "let's talk about people's hints"-stage

Greenie
List of people. I'd like to know why Lottie and Nerwen seem innocent to her. "a bit less calculating" is kind of vague. She votes me since I'm the only one she has anything on, which is fair, but it still seems foul to me. Suspecting her to be Persephone (defends Nerwen, who could be Hades, votes me over my point against Nerwen) at this point would go too far, but it's tempting.

Kath
defends me, which is nice. She misunderstands me, too, but maybe that's because I really wasn't clear enough in my first post.

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

Nogrod
throws himself into the Zeus affair heads first and follows Greenie's reasons. I don't get a suspicious feel. Then he brings up Eonwe, which is fair, but he keeps on talking about him, even though there's no way we are going to lynch a possible cursed toDay. He also keeps on misunderstanding my point against Boro, even though Rikae explained it plainly again.

Autume
passive => suspicious

Lalaith
votes Boro, which might come to haunt her should we find Boro innocent, especially since she didn't have any case against him. That's why she's probably not evil, since they would have been more careful who to vote randomly.

Rikae
hm, tricking Persephone would have been a good idea, too, in hindsight
Seems very innocent in this part.

Loslote
is a bit confusing and back-and-forth with her opinion on Nerwen.

Inzil
still have a bad feeling: only talks about Eonwe.

Nienna
her only post here is about Eonwe, too.

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.