WW: LXXVI - At Moria: EXTRA Edition

[Nerwen]

I know Mira (prior to being transformed into a Ringwraith) analysed Izzy, but I though I'd do my own.

#84. Explains the general rules of WW to Blind Guardian in great detail.


#85.

Originally Posted by Izzy the Cobbler

I agree that the Seer shouldn't necessarily use their extra dream so quickly, as it would essentially be a waste of it. I think it is not the norm that the seer goes so quickly, and holding onto it for a phase or so enables them to get a better perception of players, and they are able to better make their dream choices. If they want to use it early, that is entirely their decision. Who knows, people could be looking very suspicious early on, it has happened.

The Hunter and their extra kill, kind of worries me - as it isn't alignment specific, so they could essentially take out two innocents with them. The likelihood of taking out two wolves is less probable than two innocents, or one innocent and one wolf.

Comments: This, and #120, may have been what got Izzy killed, possibly as well as her vote on Boro. By which I mean, her preoccupation with the gifteds, especially the Seer, may have looked like a "gifted conscience", to coin a phrase.

Originally Posted by Izzy cont'd

The Cobbler, there is no reason to keep them around. I think they should be treated more like a wolf than ever before - given that they already know the identity of one wolf. If not a full wolf, they are .5 of one.

Well, the wolves took her advice about not keeping her around... Seriously, I wonder if she was trying to signal to the wolves here?

Originally Posted by Izzy cont'd

To the idea that anyone could say they were the seer. Fake-claiming a role is typically something that the wolves do, to either save themself from a lynch and/or to try and get the real special role to out themself. Ordos fake claiming, is just a mess. It can happen, as a way to protect the real special role - though as the sentence right before says.. it is a mess.

She goes to great trouble to dissuade Blind Guardian from making a false reveal. Now that we know she was the Cobbler, one wonders why.


#109. [Referring to Boro.]

He did admit he was bandwagoning. Not entirely sure it makes it any better.

#120. Argues forcefully against Lottie's proposal that the Seer should use up the extra dream, then reveal.


#131. Greets Paranoia, explains the Mafia terms he used, comments on Lottie wagon (Lottie had three votes at this point):

It kind of looks like Loslote is going to be a First Day lynch ritual? o.O

#139.

Originally Posted by Izzy

I am debating between Nienna and Boro. I dislike both of their votes.

Comments: Nienna, as far as she knew, had two votes at this point, as this crossed with my vote-post.


#141.

Originally Posted by Izzy

++Boro

I dislike his vote more than I do nienna's.

Comments: This post was made a minute before DL, when both Nienna and Lottie had three votes. Barring multiple people jumping in to vote out of nowhere, Boro was pretty safe at this point.


General Comments: It does seem quite likely she was killed as a suspected Seer. There's no clear indication of who "her" wolf was; indeed she only interacted or talked about four living players (Lottie, Boro, Paranoia and Blind Guardian). Of the four, I don't think it can have been Lottie (this of course doesn't rule out Lottie being a wolf). It could conceivably have been Boro, even though she voted for him, because the vote put him in no real danger. She helps out Paranoia, who was starting to raise eyebrows. Her relations with Blind Guardian are the most interesting, though– could #84 be an attempt to make sure a wolf-cub has an obvious source of information (in case she gets accused of knowing too much), and #85 be an attempt to prevent that same cub doing something silly? Very thin, I admit. It's just as likely "Izzy's wolf" was one of those who posted little or nothing yesterDay.

[Inziladun]

Well, a strange game this is shaping up to be, in keeping with the trend lately.

The wolves couldn't have made a better choice for their kill last Night.

Originally Posted by The Elf-warrior

Paranoia, maybe I'm just being blind, but I'm inclined to think Blind Guardian's mistakes are so mistakey that it makes her unlikely to be a wolf. I think it's more likely she's a cobbler. I'm inclined to believe she's an innocent.

It's also a well-known fact that newbie wolves are routinely encouraged to act as if they don't understand many of the workings of the game, and it could be argued that some of BG's questions have been a bit over the top in trumpeting newbie status. Not saying she's definitely a wolf, but it's something to keep in mind.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I really do think Boro is a wolfie (and not because of luck). He voted for me, and even admited it was a bandwagoning move. Since when does Boro bandwagon early? He sure seemed entirely adverse to the idea last game, when he was innocent. I'm off to analyze him...

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It does seem quite likely [Izzy] was killed as a suspected Seer. There's no clear indication of who "her" wolf was; indeed she only interacted or talked about four living players (Lottie, Boro, Paranoia and Blind Guardian). Of the four, I don't think it can have been Lottie (this of course doesn't rule out Lottie being a wolf). It could conceivably have been Boro, even though she voted for him, because the vote put him in no real danger.

If Boro is furry, I don't think it's all that likely he was the one wolf Izzy knew about. Why would she have voted for him, in that case? She could easily have voted someone else, and if she knew he was a wolf she should have known a blind vote for him could make the pack suspicious enough to kill her.

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I don't think that Boro's a wolf, of course what am I to know?

That's nice, but why not?

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

That reason being that my account has 666 posts and SOMEONE refuses to let me post again and thus forked over his account information.

This is quite bizarre!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Boro is furry, I don't think it's all that likely he was the one wolf Izzy knew about. Why would she have voted for him, in that case? She could easily have voted someone else, and if she knew he was a wolf she should have known a blind vote for him could make the pack suspicious enough to kill her.

I said it was "conceivable", not "likely".

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's nice, but why not?

Indeed, did you have any specific reason for thinking he was innocent, Blind? You did not mention it.

[Nerwen]

So, I was rather struck by young Blind Guardian's dialogue toDay, and I thought I'd turn it into a little play. (Longer passages have been summarised in italics. All BG's posts are untouched.)

EYELESS WATCHER

A play in one act
by
Nerwen

Sally: Ha, ha, Boro's a wolf!

Blind Guardian: Bye-bye Izzy, it was nice to know you. Why do you think Boro's a wolf?

Loslote: This is why.

Blind Guardian: I don't think that Boro's a wolf, of course what am I to know?

Mira: This is why too.

Nerwen: And this.

Paranoia: Ditto.

Blind Guardian: This is all just guessing though. And she wasn't the Seer she was the cobbler. Right? So what's the big deal. If you vote off Boro you may have one less wolf/Seer/villager or whatever. Though I see where you are going. Looks suspicious. Hm...

Lottie: *analyses Boro in detail* See? Bad.

Blind Guardian: OK now he sounds evil.

Nerwen: Barring a Seer-reveal, it's always "just guessing". The point is that the wolves may have thought she was the Seer.

Blind Guardian: I just so happened she was the cobbler So who killed her?

Lottie: The wolves. They were silly.

Blind Guardian: No I meant who is the wolves, I knew that!

Various: Cookies! Cookies!

Blind Guardian: OK OK enough with the cookies! Who's the wolf?

Lottie: Boro. I think Boro. Also Morsul, because of his supremely annoying "no vote" yesterDay. See my vote post for reasons why this is evil.

Blind Guardian: Boro does look suspicious. I don't know, let me read

Blind Guardian: Paranoa too, looked suspicious.

Keeper of Dol Guldur (formerly Mirandir): I am Mira no more! I am a Nazgul! Fear me! Raaa!

Keeper of Dol Guldur (commenting on Blind's "who's the wolf? post): That's kinda the point of the game. To figure that out. Try working some suspicions out for yourself and see where that gets us.

Lottie: Hmm. Noia could just be a rather...agressive newbie. I'd give him a bit longer to see if he calms down a bit.

Blind Guardian: We where talking about cookies, I was trying to get us back on track.

Blind Guardian: Then that leaves Boro

Lottie: It's not so much that it leaves Boro, he just happens to look guilty. There are plenty of other people who could be wolves. Actually, three more, to be specific.

For example...I still don't like Morsul's refusal to vote. And there are several people (Glirdy, Wilwa, Cabbie, and Tum come to mind) who haven't really posted and thus haven't given us much to work with. But Boro does look bad, I'll readily give you that.

Blind Guardian: True. I don't like Morsul's refusal to vote either. Might be a wolf trying to act innocent.

Keeper of Dol Guldur: Morsul's refusal to vote doesn't bother me the way it seems to be bothering other people. I've refused to vote on Day 1 plenty of times because I hate crapshoot votes. At least he bothered to post, unlike half the people supposedly playing in this game.

Lottie *explains why Morsul's post was suspicious*

Various: Deadline? Deadline?

Blind Guardian: That's what I didn't like.

Keeper of Dol Guldur: What didn't you like? It's disgustingly ambiguous posts like that that don't get us anywhere and just confuse people. Please try to be more specific.

Blind Guardian: I said I didn't like Morsul not posting! That's what we where talking about.

Keeper of Dol Guldur: Actually we were talking about deadline, but if you want to think that you can. Furthermore, why don't you like Morsul not posting? Making ambiguous posts with no justification is a waste of everybody's time because then people have to ask why.

Blind Guardian: I didn't like his post because he came online, said he wasn't going to vote and then dissapeared. What the heck? Why not just lerk then say anything at all and act suspicious. And his reasoning was that he didn't suspeact anyone or something along those lines. That he was confused. Why not ask questions like me? "oh I'm a seer and I know something so I'm not going to vote"

If that didn't make sence I'm tired and my thumb hurts

[Note: it makes sense, but it's just a repeat of Lottie's reasons.]


Critic's response: This remarkably fresh drama, with its sparkling, witty conversation and it surface gaiety, carries a darker, yet inescapable subtext. The audience is left wondering: what, exactly, is the relationship between Blind Guardian and Boromir88? What drives her to be truly– in a brilliant piece of symbolism– "blind" to the mounting evidence against him, to try, seemingly, to find another suspect for the crime of which he is accused? We know from the beginning that this is no love story: what strange, unspoken bond, then, can it be that links these two very different characters?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

And in case it's not clear what I'm getting at in my last post: I wouldn't be surprised if Boro and Blind Guardian were packmates. It sort of looks that way. I mean she might be just a newbie who is grateful to him for being kind to her, and doesn't understand why he's suspicious, but still...

[satansaloser2005]

Quick announcement:

I'll be going to see Duck (and our friend the Right Honorable Guinea Pig, our cohort for most of our little adventures) this afternoon. They're all growed up. *sniff* Anyway, while I don't plan to be gone that long, I don't know what (if anything) we'll be doing, so I'm not sure when I'll be back once I leave. But don't worry, I'll be voting at some point, I swear. Otherwise Shasta's threatened me with a grisly death.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boro

Lottie, find someone else to execute. I voted for you because you had me thinking Rikae was in the game. I thought, I got to vote, Lottie's confusing me, if she's going to do that, that's the best thing I got. It's only a bandwagon because of coming after Glirdan's. I'll ask you since you apparently know me oh so well now after being PM buddies a whole 24 hours...do you really think as a wolf I would go for the easy Day 1 option? I can't help when I have to vote, but heck at least I do it. That's the only reason you have a reason to suspect me, unlike half the rest of this place.

In other words, Boro, you voted Lottie for the kind of trumped-up reason that actually looks worse than none at all– and I say this as one who is generally suspicious of random votes.

And I don't know about Lottie, but I do think you would go for an easy lynch. Why on Earth not?

[Blind Guardian]

Boy, I sounded like poop last night. I don't even remember posting half of that But let's see; I am new and I have never played any werewolf-mofia games, ever. I don't want to say boros a wolf is kinda a subconcious thing. Something tells me not to vote for Boro. I don't know, it's hard to explain

[Boromir88]

Oh lovely, everyone and their mother has thrown out every possible reason in the book at me. At least the last few posts have been more reasonable, besides Nerwen banging on about "curling up into a ball" and Mira dropping out references to hidden clues in the narration (let's just go on and ignore that post though, right?) Mira, go for it, let's hear this clue in the narration you found, holding back now isn't going to save me.

There's flip-flopping and then there's wolves eyeing a juicy lynch, which one Blind are I'll let you lot figure out, but you're all are just going to write it off as a newbie mistake I imagine.

Originally Posted by Blind, 159

I don't think that Boro's a wolf, of course what am I to know?

Originally Posted by Blind, 169

OK now he sounds evil.

Lottie, find someone else to execute. I voted for you because you had me thinking Rikae was in the game. I thought, I got to vote, Lottie's confusing me, if she's going to do that, that's the best thing I got. It's only a bandwagon because of coming after Glirdan's. I'll ask you since you apparently know me oh so well now after being PM buddies a whole 24 hours...do you really think as a wolf I would go for the easy Day 1 option? I can't help when I have to vote, but heck at least I do it. That's the only reason you have a reason to suspect me, unlike half the rest of this place.

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Mirandur :p

Morsul's refusal to vote doesn't bother me the way it seems to be bothering other people. I've refused to vote on Day 1 plenty of times because I hate crapshoot votes. At least he bothered to post, unlike half the people supposedly playing in this game.

I'll put this in a way that you can easily understand it (that isn't supposed to come off as a rude slight, but just saying I'm going to put it in an analogy I know you'll understand). If the Cowboys were playing the Eagles, you know that the Cowboys are allowed to look at all of the Eagles' game film to prepare for the match on Sunday (film on their practices is a big no-no, but all football teams look at game film to prepare for their upcoming match).

In WW we don't know who the foes are, we have to figure it out on our own, but there's a lot of game film we can look at. One of the biggest forms is a vote, because it makes everyone leave some sort of evidence. Mods can't control how many times people post, and truthfully I don't like spending hours reading through a thread, so it's ok if people don't have the time to post a lot, or simply just don't want to. As much as I want to smother Paranoia with a pillow for yesterday, he came on, posted at least once and voted. When multiple people don't vote, it's one thing to not vote because of time crunch or being sick, but to blatantly refuse to vote is getting rid of a part of the game-film we NEED to have to lynch wolves. It would honestly be like if the Eagles refused to give the Cowboys half their game-film, just because they didn't want to. I'm sure they don't like it, but they have to. People might not like making a tough, rushed vote, but man up, stop whining about it and just do it. All of us who do vote are playing by the rules and have "game-film" now to look at, those who don't...and that's weak and it's bull.

Edit: crossed with Zil and Nerwen

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, so I have a dumb question. (Because I just woke up and am not processing very well right now.) Is Mira replaced by Keeper or is Mira playing under Keeper? *headdesks* I'm just so very tired....


Also, I'm going to go look at Morsul and a couple other people. Back soon-ish.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Oh lovely, everyone and their mother has thrown out every possible reason in the book at me. At least the last few posts have been more reasonable, besides Nerwen banging on about "curling up into a ball" and Mira dropping out references to hidden clues in the narration (let's just go on and ignore that post though, right?) Mira, go for it, let's hear this clue in the narration you found, holding back now isn't going to save me.

Heh, yeah, so about that. It was this: "I knew you were a wolf!" she said excitedly, staring at one of the wolves in particular (who began to be uncomfortable). Then it was brought to my attention that I suck at life and the cobbler knew who one of the wolves was at the beginning of the game. My bad.

In WW we don't know who the foes are, we have to figure it out on our own, but there's a lot of game film we can look at. One of the biggest forms is a vote, because it makes everyone leave some sort of evidence. Mods can't control how many times people post, and truthfully I don't like spending hours reading through a thread, so it's ok if people don't have the time to post a lot, or simply just don't want to. As much as I want to smother Paranoia with a pillow for yesterday, he came on, posted at least once and voted. When multiple people don't vote, it's one thing to not vote because of time crunch or being sick, but to blatantly refuse to vote is getting rid of a part of the game-film we NEED to have to lynch wolves. It would honestly be like if the Eagles refused to give the Cowboys half their game-film, just because they didn't want to. I'm sure they don't like it, but they have to. People might not like making a tough, rushed vote, but man up, stop whining about it and just do it. All of us who do vote are playing by the rules and have "game-film" now to look at, those who don't...and that's weak and it's bull.

Hmm, you know, I feel like we've had this conversation before. Oh wait, that's because we have. And as per usual, we're going to agree to disagree on this one. But only on Day 1. After that I totally agree with you. (Thanks for the football reference, by the way. <3 my Boys)

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Okay, so I have a dumb question. (Because I just woke up and am not processing very well right now.) Is Mira replaced by Keeper or is Mira playing under Keeper? *headdesks* I'm just so very tired....

It's still Mira, darling. Just under a different account.

Nerwen, fabulous play. *applauds*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

ATTENTION

Wilwa has been modkilled by request. She was an Ordo.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

ATTENTION

Wilwa has been modkilled by request. She was an Ordo.

*snuggles her poor muffin*

[Morsul the Dark]

Wow I wss gone all day not much added... Which isn't bad I mean I can catch up now... Though I did notice Sally's analysyzs of mye another person calling me lazy that's New and original By the way yesterday was THREE pages of JUST banter... why waste a vote on That nonsense. Nienna died and she seemed to be the only one trying.

And Nerwen yes I do often suspect you but for you to go along with all the banter and then write a "Play" seems so not you.

those are my initial thoughts oh and Blind Guardian is Throwing the newbie card at us... seems suspect. Newbies usually get some leeway so no need to throw it out at us so much.

I'd post more but as everyone knows I'm lazy, I'll read through and make more concrete post soon.

[Blind Guardian]

What newbie card? I'm just asking questions!