The Capital of Cardolan

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

As it says in the Tale of Years, the Dunedain took Tyrn Gorthad seriously enough to defend it in 1409 of the Third Age. But there is no very specific mention of structures there. But Tom Bombadil seems to also have some memories of the Dunedain there, beyond them being simply buried there...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

As it says in the Tale of Years, the Dunedain took Tyrn Gorthad seriously enough to defend it in 1409 of the Third Age. But there is no very specific mention of structures there. But Tom Bombadil seems to also have some memories of the Dunedain there, beyond them being simply buried there...

It looks to me as though they simply fled there from the forces of Angmar and were cornered and forced to fight.

A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns) or took refuge in the Forest behind.

FOTR Appendix A

If they had a stonghold or fortress there, I wouldn't think they would have been obliged to hide in the Old Forest. They might have had some temporary housing around the Downs, but I don't think that region was ever intended as a site for permanant habitation.

It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain.....Those hills were therefore revered by the Dúnedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried.

FOTR Appendix A

I can't find any evidence that anything was there apart from the mounds. It appears the area was regarded solely for its historical interest, and the honoured dead that lay there.

[Rhugga II]

I think Inziladun is probably right. Intersting about the parachuting hippos, Rumil. I agree that some of the elements of MERP seem to be as alien to Tolkien as hippo paratroopers, but at their best they merely conjectured, which is something I like to do with Middle Earth. To wit, I am curious exactly what we know - or what you all have discussed - about the First Great Northern War (1352-1359), as it is known in MERP. In Tale of the Years it is simply noted that in 1356 Argeleb fell in battle with Rhudaur. In her atlas of Middle Earth, Karen Fonstad visualizes a two-pronged assault on Amon Sul by the forces of Angmar marching southeast and the army of Rhudaur marching down the East Road. They converge on Amon Sul, but the armies of Cardolan and Arthedain throw them back.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I can't find any evidence that anything was there apart from the mounds. It appears the area was regarded solely for its historical interest, and the honoured dead that lay there.

The very presence of the mounds, however, would seem to indicate a wider Dúnedainic presence in Tyrn Gorthad than mere military flight. The Barrows and environs include stone architecture, which suggests to me that some of the Barrows, at least, predate the flight-to-the-forest situation of the final Cardolanrim. This being the case, it seems to me quite unlikely that the Dúnedain buried there would have been transported thither from a great distance.

Granted, of course, the Númenoreans were greatly skilled in embalming, and this was inherited at least in Gondor, so presumably for a time in Arnor as well, but there's still no reason to assume that the Arnorian, or later Cardolanian "Valley of the Kings" would have been located so far from the capital, as in Númenor, Armenelos was nigh to Meneltarma (the burial valley being in the southern shadow of the mountain), and in Gondor it was also in the shadow of a mountain--Mindolluin, within the walls of Minas Anor.

Mind you, both these examples would seem to indicate a preference for mountain burials among the Dúnedainic royalty, but Tyrn Gorthad is much further from Annúminas than either Mindolluin or Meneltarma from their respective cities, nor is it truly mountainous. Annúminas had much closer hills of equivalent or greater height in the Hills of Evendim or even the North Downs, and the later, Cardolanic royalty, if we assume they reigned from Tharbad (personally, I don't discount the possiblility of an unknown, more centrally located capital, perhaps in the much nearer South Downs), would have been even further away.

If the Barrow downs indicate royal burial, and I emphasize that I have no reason to think they do, then this would indicate a much nearer Cardolanic capital than Tharbad. Perhaps not Tyrn Gorthad itself--I have already suggested the South Downs, and I think a glance at a map of Eriador would make such a general location strategic, if not likely.

On the other hand, if the barrows of Tyrn Gorthad are not royal, which I would presume exclusively if the treasure in the burial mounds were less, then it seems to me that there must be a closer source of the dead Dúnedain--closer, perhaps, even than the South Downs, though the embalming Dúnedain before ailing Cardolan was absorbed back into Arthedain could have made such a distance possible. Still, if we aren't looking for royalty, then we aren't looking for a major city or fortress--perhaps just a major Númenorean estate--the ancestors of the "last prince of Cardolan" perhaps--and perhaps it isn't too untoward to think there may have been some Dúnedain, perhaps of great wealth, resident among the later-named Barrow-Downs themselves, or perhaps just to the east.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I guess I'd better explain my rather obscure comment

The parachuting hippo was in a picture in one edition of the MERP rulebook, merrily floating down over a serene pastoral scene, small but quite distinct (somewhere amongst the innumerable tables if I remember). It always made me chuckle and I've never heard why or how it got there.

Meanwhile back at Cardolan,

Amon Sul was where one of the Palantirs was kept was it not? Pretty much near the junction of all three kingdoms, and a major object of the military campaigns. (Quite why it couldn't be moved I don't know, perhaps a pride thing?)

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but wasn't Tharbad on the border between Gondorian and Arnorian land? I'm sure someone will put me right.

Another candidate for Cardolanian capital could be the settlement in the Angle where the Rangers had their main base in Aragorn's day, maybe.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Amon Sul was where one of the Palantirs was kept was it not? Pretty much near the junction of all three kingdoms, and a major object of the military campaigns. (Quite why it couldn't be moved I don't know, perhaps a pride thing?)

.......

Another candidate for Cardolanian capital could be the settlement in the Angle where the Rangers had their main base in Aragorn's day, maybe.

Regarding Amon Sûl, I'm not entirely clear where the idea that this lay within the borders of Cardolan comes from. The borders of the three kingdoms are enumerated so:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

Arthedain was in the North-west and included the land between Brandywine and Lune, and also the land north of the Great Road as far as the Weather Hills. Rhudaur was in the North-east and lay between the Ettenmoors , the Weather Hills, and the Misty Mountains, but also included the Angle between Hoarwell and Loudwater. Cardolan was in the South, its bounds being the Brandywine, the Greyflood, and the Great Road

--emphases mine

Quite apart from clearly eliminating the possibility of a Cardolanic capital in the Angle, it doesn't quite tell us which kingdom held Amon Sûl. It does, however, leave Cardolan with the weakest claim of the three--since Amon Sûl is one of the Weather Hills, north of the Great Road.

Granted, however, it is the final Weather Hill, and so lies just north of the Great Road. But it is north, and so technically outside the bounds of Cardolan, as enumerated here. However, it does bear mentioning the following:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

There was often strife between the kingdoms, which hastened the waning of the Dúnedain. The chief matter of debate was the possession of the Weather Hills and the land westwards towards Bree. Both Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess Amon Sûl (Weathertop), which stood on the borders of their realms: for th Tower of Amon Sûl held the chief Palantír of the North, and the other two were both in the keeping of Arthedain.

My reading of this passage is that Cardolan, like Rhudaur, did not possess Amon Sûl, but--again, like Rhudaur--wanted possession of the Weather Hills and east-of-Bree Arthedain for control of the hill and the Palantír. I'll admit the passage leaves open the possibility that either of the cadet branches of the North-kingdom may have, during the "strife" occasionally taken over that realm, but it does not seem to me that it was theirs to begin with.

Certainly, in such a contested and non-originally Cardolanic area, it seems clear that the Kings of Cardolan would not have had their capital in its immediate vicinity.

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but wasn't Tharbad on the border between Gondorian and Arnorian land? I'm sure someone will put me right.

The record isn't straight on that matter...

Without digging up quotes at the moment, I think there are two statements that contradict each other. I think they might both be in Unfinished Tales. Anyway, whatever the sources are, I'm confident that I am quoting them accurately to say that the following captures the situation accurately:

In one place Tolkien says that Minihiriath--the lands between Isen and Gwathló--were a no-man's land between Arnor and Gondor. In this case, the old Númenorean stronghold of Tharbad, on the border between Arnor and the no-man's land, would clearly have been within the realm of the North-kings, and thus inherited by Cardolan in the division of the realms.

On the other hand, Tolkien also says somewhere that Gondor ruled westwards (I think this was a reference in relation to the furthest extent of Gondor's power), to Tharbad and Gwathló, where it met Arnor. In this case, it is not clear that Tharbad was a part of Arnor/Cardolan, but even so, at no point was Minihiriath ever much populated by Dúnedain, other than at Tharbad, and much earlier at Lond Daer at the mouth of the Gwathló, and it does not seem that Gondor would have exercised much more than a nominal claim over Minihiriath, which would still leave Arnor/Cardolan with the greater claim on the city.

It is said, in seeming contradiction to both statements, in Appendix A (iii) that:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the South-east, and most of the poeple of Cardolan perished, especially in Minihiriath

--emphasis mine

In contrast to both the previous-mentioned traditions--again, I think I'm remembered Unfinished Tales--Appendix A seems to suggest that Minihiriath, at least in the late days of Cardolan's independence, was a part of the northern realms.

Looking at a map, however, it possible to reconcile these opposing claims to an extent, by suggesting that de facto Minihiriath was a no-man's land between the Númenorean realms-in-exile. Tharbad, on the edge of the region, seems clearly to have belonged to Cardolan (and I think is a good contender for capital, save that it's so far removed from all the action and population in the north), and inland Minihiriath, near Tharbad and about the Greenway, would undoubtedly have acknowledged the Northern king, whether of Arnor or of Cardolan. The apparently contradictory claim of Gondor to Minihiriath may, perhaps, be just a mere claim, or--I prefer this--refers mostly to the coastline. Apart from the army sent, late, to the succour of Arvedui, Gondor never seems to have had much interest in advancing northwest--but it did have an incredibly strong naval tradition. Gondor exercising its muscle along the unpopulated coastlands and extending this title inland--where people under an internationally renowned Cardolan actually acknowledged northern rule--seems eminently plausible.

A final note: according to the Tale of the Years (Appendix B), Tharbad was not finally abandoned until the Fell Winter of 2911-2, when Bilbo Baggins was 21, so several centuries after Calenardhion had passed from Gondor to Rohan, and thus cutting it off--substantially--from Gondor, which seems to have had no contact with the North, post-Eärnur. Though, of course, Tharbad need not have been a city or town explicitly associated with either kingdom, and might by this point have been an essentially non-Númenorean independent town, it definitely seems to fall clearly within the purview of the Dúnedain of the North, rather than the South, and I would take its survival to this late day as a sign that it had always been considered part of the North Kingdom.

[Rumil]

Excellent Formendacil,

you nicely eliminated Amon Sul and the Angle, leaving Tharbad as only known candidate (unless there was some abandoned city hanging around somewhere).

As I'm too dozy to even remember the Angle was in Rhudaur , I'm off to bed,

Cheers!