Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way. .

'pplicability, innit? One reason, I suppose, why Tolkien went out of his way to stress that the story had no underlying meaning or message. It has always fascinated me how readers attempt to use Tolkien's writings to support their own religious or political stance. The author of that piece simply gets Eowyn wrong - she's not about what he says she's about. Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself. One has to understand the hopeless state she is in, seeking death because life is dead & grey & hopeless, & if she doesn't end it it will just go on & on & on. Coming from a warrior culture its natural that if she is seeking death she should seek it on the field - hopefully achieving some kind of renown in the process - but let's be under no illusion that what she wants is the death: the glory is just the icing on the cake. To present her as an 'ideal', someone women should aspire to be, is idiotic. The writer is simply hearing her words, not what she is saying.

Thus, the writer's final paragraph:

Nevertheless, let us all be valiant like Eowyn; break free from the cages of welfare, universal health care, government-controlled Social Security, policies advocating the stealing of money from one group and giving it to another group who didn't earn it, and let all Americans boldly face our destiny with courage, individual effort and the power of God.

borders on the inane - because Eowyn's story has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of Welfare or Medicare. One can relate Eowyn's story to the sufferings of contemporary individuals (as one can with the stories of many of the characters) but not to contemporary political arguments. Arguing that big government/welfare/Medicare = Mordor & therefore must be fought by free, right thinking individuals is as silly as arguing that multi-national drug companies & insurance companies = Mordor & government must protect all the people - not just the ones considered 'deserving' (There but for the Grace of God......) & ensure their health & well-being. And those comparisons are 'silly' not because one cannot validly argue the rightness & wrongness of either position, but because neither big government nor big business = Mordor.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself.

I quite agree. However, I think it would be a mistake, both over-simplistic and tending toward sexism, to see her words to Aragorn and her going into battle as completely wrong or mistaken, nothing but the symptoms of a sick soul. Yes, her hopelessness and desire for a swift death are in a sense 'sick'. But this does not deprive her words of their force or even their rightness. There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron.

That's why I don't see Eowyn's transformation in the Houses of Healing as anti-feminist. If you ask me, her personal healing has little to do with the fact that she is a woman and everything to do with the fact that she was a warrior. A man who was as desirous of a glorious death in battle would be in need of exactly the same kind of healing. I think, then, that Eowyn's sickness says something about what war does to people, and her recovery about the need to reclaim one's life, to forsake killing and destroying and take up healing and creating, after war.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

I wonder how 'male-centric' Rohan is - certainly it is in comparison to the modern Western ideal, but its quite an advance on what many women face in parts of the world even today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8204207.stm . And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight - perhaps part of Eowyn's frustration was that she couldn't take up that traditional female role due her duty of care for her uncle. I wouldn't necessarily assume that that the Rohirric system is 'cruel to women'. I'm sure Eowyn wasn't unique among the women of that country in being able to use a sword. In short, I don't believe that Eowyn is actually desiring something unique - just possibly something that was out of fashion. Or possibly not - maybe women did commonly fight, if only in defence of their homes. I wouldn't be surprised at the existence of a few shield maidens in Rohan or to discover incidents of Hillmen & Orcs attacking a settlement & suddenly finding themselves face to face with a woman or two in armour, wielding spear or sword.

Hence my feeling that her words are more of a cover up for her real desire - to go down in a blaze of glory & gain the respect & honour in death that she finds it impossible to obtain in life. She doesn't desire to fight to defend her people - she desires to die defending them.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron.

No. but should we judge her mental/spiritual motivation by the unintended result of her actions, or by her motivating desire? She didn't go to battle to defeat the Witch King & save the world, she went to get herself killed. That she did succeed in helping dispatch him is a nice bit of serendipity, but she had no idea that stabbing him would have any effect at all, let alone that it would finish him off.

[Elmo]

Regarding previous shield-women, they may have defended their homes before, I don't think they've ever went to war. Isn't there a quote by Eomer(?) saying something to this effect?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There's also a bit of a comparison to Eowyn with other
peoples, when the women of the Wainriders help fend
off the woodsmen attacking their wagons and children
while their army is off attacking Gondor.

In 1899, the Wainriders planned an invasion of Gondor. At the same time, the enslaved Northmen intended to revolt against the Wainriders. Marhwini of the Eotheod learned of these plans and informed King Calimehtar of Gondor.
Calimehtar led an army to draw out the Wainriders while the enslaved Northmen attacked the Wainriders' settlements in Wilderland. But the settlements were guarded by the Wainriders' women, youths, and old men, and most of the rebelling Northmen were killed.

Apparently it's not nice to mess with Middle-earth women.

[Aiwendil]

Davem -

You make a fair point about the possibility that other 'shield-maidens' existed in Rohan, despite the fact that we don't have any concrete evidence that they did.

To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that the Rohirrim were terribly misogynistic, and indeed as you say there are places in the world today where women have it much, much worse. I do think the culture is androcentric, but this isn't anything unique to Rohan. Indeed, I would argue that women have been subjugated to one degree or another in pretty much every human culture that has ever existed.

More to the point, however, I think that the existence or non-existence of other female warriors in Rohan is actually somewhat immaterial. The fact is that Eowyn is constrained by her society to a role that she finds hateful; she is denied the glory of battle that is so highly prized and compelled to entrust her fate to others. Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. .

I would not disagree with any of this post other that to qualify the everywhere probably does not include Lorien... but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I think it reinforces the atmosphere of futility and despair that neither Theodred or Boromir at forty had done their duty by posterity and ensured the succession.
I remember something that in latter days the lords of Gondor thought more of their ancestors than their sons (a trend bucked by Imrahil given four children and a grandson as a good example to the others perhaps ).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

... but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I agree with all of this, except perhaps about Galadriel. Galadriel seems to be an example of an empowered woman, beyond almost anybody else (she certainly shows up her husband by showing both better knowledge of what was going on when the Fellowship arrived, and also a more noble sympathy for the people involved, for example, Gimli)...

The situation in Rohan at the time of the story is probably an extreme case, both because Rohan seems to be a very male-dominated, military oriented culture, but also because there are no female role models around. While Eowyn failed to fulfill her obligations as ruler of Rohan in the absence of Theoden and Eomer (and as some have pointed out, this is a significant job, especially if the battle at Gondor had been lost), I cannot help feeling that she had some kind of premonition that she had a role to play in the battle. In other words, it wasn't just a matter of wanting to be there in the thick of the battle. The role of course is the defeat of the Witch King, which is a pivotal part of the battle that she was in some way destined to play a part. Merry also fulfills a destiny here as well, if somewhat more reluctantly.

While Eowyn's change of heart later might(?) be viewed as just coming around to the view that it might not be so bad to be somebody's wife, I also cannot help feeling that she also realized that she had played the historic role (defeating the WK) that she was destined for. I suspect that she had no regrets about her decision to join the battle before the Gates of Minas Tirith...

[Mithalwen]

Ah I knew I should have qualified the Galadriel comment - the limitation I refer to is not due to her gender specifically but at the time of the War of the rings (the point when the time of the elves is ending) perhaps to her Elvishness. She has her power in her small realm, and can withstand as long as the Dark lord himself does not go there. Hers is a passive strength - able to resist the growing darkness but not challenge openly. She dare not take the one ring. In this she is no different to the male leaders of her people ..Elrond, Cirdan. Individual elves have awesome power but they are few and against the overwhelming forces of Sauron they are not enough "Even if you chose for us an elf lord such as Glorfindel..." . So mighty though Galadriel be (and she and Eowyn and Idril are my favourite female characters - Tolkien may have deified the brunettes but it is the blondes who have spirit, leadership qualities and initiative!) I do wonder if Lorien became a hutch as much as Eowyn's bower.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

[Lindale]

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

In my opinion, Haleth was a terrible leader, who caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering to her people with her pride and her pointless quest to go ever more west. But that's another thread.

[Aiwendil]

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

As I recall, the Rohirrim are probably 'cousins' of the House of Hador, rather, who never crossed over the Blue Mountains. But I cannot recall a source for that.

In any case, the Halethrim are undoubtedly another very important topic in dealing with women and feminism in Tolkien. As Elmo suggests, it would make an interesting thread in itself (I can't say I agree with Elmo's opinion of Haleth).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

True but I think there was more to it - but I need to locate my notes to remember what. So I'll go and dig.

[Faramir Jones]

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor. If, for example, an ordinary Rider ordered to stay in Rohan behaved the same way she did, he would quite rightly be seen as having deserted his post and disobeyed orders, and would suffer serious disciplinary action. Eowyn, however, did not.

While she is a member of the royal family, this would add to the obligation to behave properly, to set a standard of behaviour for the people. My own view is that she was very lucky in fighting the Witch-king and being very seriously wounded. This was, presumably, seen by many as a sufficient punishment for her desertion.

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?