Frodo's Barrow Dilemma

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

Here are some novel questions: Would the wight have seen him? Do they inhabit the same shadow-world as the Nazgûl? Would this plan of Frodo's have been viable (though cowardly)?

The wights were spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur sent by the Witch-King to inhabit the barrows (see App.A). As spirits they belonged to the Spirit world, to the World of the Unseen, so a person wearing the Ring would be fully visible to them. It was a very BAD plan.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Mostly offtopic but, if he put it on and the Wight saw
and killed him and the hobbits, then what?

Then there is the question who gets to this Barrow first: Tom or the Witch-King. Both are nearby and one of them would almost certainly come before Aragorn.

If Tom gets the Ring, he would likely willingly surrender it to Aragorn. And the latter would have to carry the Ring to Rivendell on his own: a severe trial for him... almost impossible not to succomb to the Ring's lure.

Because with Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin dead, where would Aragorn get more hobbits? Maybe he could persuade Bob or Nob to take over?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The wights were spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur sent by the Witch-King to inhabit the barrows (see App.A). As spirits they belonged to the Spirit world, to the World of the Unseen, so a person wearing the Ring would be fully visible to them. It was a very BAD plan.

The wights appear to have some notable differences from the Ringwraiths, and there seems to be evidence against wights being able to see one wearing the Ring.

Trembling (Frodo) looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. It leaned over him. He thought there were two eyes, very cold though lit with a pale light that seemed to come from some remote distance. Then a grip stronger and colder than iron seized him.

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

Frodo, without wearing the Ring, was able to see the Wight. Compare this to the Ringwraiths, that are completely invisible to mortals unless they wear clothing to give shape to themselves.
If Frodo could see the Wight without the Ring, and it could plainly see him, I am inclined to think it could not have seen him while he wore it.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Frodo, without wearing the Ring, was able to see the Wight. Compare this to the Ringwraiths, that are completely invisible to mortals unless they wear clothing to give shape to themselves.
If Frodo could see the Wight without the Ring, and it could plainly see him, I am inclined to think it could not have seen him while he wore it.

But Frodo could see the bones, not the spirit itself. I think the spirit, not the physical body (or rather, bones) could see him with the ring, as spirits are on the Other Side.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But Frodo could see the bones, not the spirit itself. I think the spirit, not the physical body (or rather, bones) could see him with the ring, as spirits are on the Other Side.

Would a mere skeleton be described as a 'tall dark figure like a shadow'? Wouldn't you think Frodo would have described bare bones, if that's what he'd seen?

It seems the 'What are Barrow-wights?' question once again rears its ugly head.
The wights must have had a corporeal form.

Round the corner a long arm was groping, walking on its fingers towards Sam, who was lying nearest....

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

That arm was not described as 'skeletal' either.
I've heard arguments that what Frodo saw in the barrow were the animated remains of who was buried there, and the same spell that preserved the weapons and treasure it contained also kept the remains from corruption. It is unlikely the arm was merely dead flesh, however.

Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.

ROTK App A

In the days of Argeleb II....an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mound and welt there.

ROTK App A

Argeleb II's reign presumably began upon the death of his father, Araphor in 1589, and Argeleb died in 1670. Therefore, those remains had to have been in the barrow at least 180 years, plenty of time for advanced decomposition before the Wight arrived, so the arm Frodo saw could not have been part of the corpse.

[Findegil]

Don't forgett that we talk about a Númenorean Prince. The Númenoreans had developt the art of precerving the flash for long times in Númenore and the Exiles brought that art to Middle-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Boromir88]

Would a mere skeleton be described as a 'tall dark figure like a shadow'? Wouldn't you think Frodo would have described bare bones, if that's what he'd seen?~Inziladun

Playing too much WW? That logic may be reasonable to use there, but not sure I like it being used with the books. No one is really in a position to argue what Frodo 'should' have said (or Tolkien 'should' have written) if he saw a bunch of bones, or whatever it is he saw.

'dark figure' is a generic descriptor that was used for lots of things in LOTR.

"the shadow" and "dark figure" were interchanged for the Balrog.

Sauron was a "dark figure" taking the shape of a man...'"yet greater." (Letter 246)

The beasts that attacked the company were first described as "dark wolf-shapes."

And I'm sure the Ringwraiths were referred to as "dark figures" more than once.

A few paragraphs before the dark was described as "near and thick," Frodo is terrifed, fell on the ground, and seconds away from conking out. We have no clue about the details of the Barrow-wight, because Frodo has no clue. It's tall, dark, a figure, and cold. It could be a spirit inhabitting some guys bones, or it could have been a nargle for all Frodo knew.

You expect Frodo (and Tolkien) to give us a clear description of every evil creature, spirit, or thing out there that Frodo and our heroes encounter? Ha.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You expect Frodo (and Tolkien) to give us a clear description of every evil creature, spirit, or thing out there that Frodo and our heroes encounter? Ha.

I don't expect all to be crystal clear; indeed that takes some of the magic away from the story. But I can't help thinking that a skeleton and a more solid form are different enough in appearance that Frodo would have used different wording if what he was seeing was empty bones. He was not viewing the wight in total darkness, but against the stars.
To be sure, there's still some ambiguity. That said, I don't see why the wight must possess no solid form of its own.
As to the 'embalming' question, the Númenóreans certainly took actions to preserve the bodies of at least their kings and rulers after death. However, the death of that unnamed prince occurred during a time of desperate fighting, and I have to wonder whether taking the time to embalm him would have been wise or feasible at that time.