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Old 06-30-2009, 09:02 PM   #1
Morsul the Dark
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realization... He Found out what would happen, and that's the point he was Still a formidable foe without the ring. Imagine you have a baseball bat, are you lose it you're weakened but then you rebuilld you learn martial arts you can still kick butt you find out your bat is still in existence imagine how much More powerful you'll be with it. He didnt think he needed it.

Besides you're assuming he didn't think anyone would destroy the ring... so that would mean he understimated it's power.... so he still didn't know Everything about it did he?
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Old 07-01-2009, 12:46 AM   #2
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I imagine that when the ring was taken by Isildur Sauron was in panic and winged away into hidding. I assume that the physical fight with Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur had gone badly for Sauron and that Isildur was able to withhold the ring physically from Sauron at that moment. Further I think that when soon after Isildur claimed the Ring as his own instade of throwing it into the pit of doom that this act allone brought Sauron the loss of power we observe.
This loss of power for Sauron in this down fall (the overall event) was terrible (for him). It is mention a few times that Sauron was in doubt about the ring and its existence. Maybe he recognised only when Frodo claimed the Ring, as a kind of a reminder, that what had happend in the Second Age was like a birthday party against what was possible with the destruction of the ring.

I don't think that Sauron did consider what the loss of the Ring to some other Lord or the destruction of it would mean for him when he made that Ring. Consider Celebrimbor, he also found out too late how much of his inherent power had gone into his three Rings when Sauron had bound it up with the one and Celebrimbor could nolonger destroy his own creations even with the help of Galadriel.

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Old 07-01-2009, 07:27 AM   #3
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After all, it was over 1000 years into the Third Age before he was able to regain enough power to become the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and even longer before he was able to return to Mordor and rebuild his forces, And that was with the simple loss of the Ring.~Inziladun
That still wouldn't necessarily prove to Sauron, the destruction of the Ring would destroy him too. Sauron could reform and rebuild before creating the Ring. I will have to track down the reference, but somewhere I remember Tolkien writing that with each rebuilding Sauron lost part of his "will." It wasn't the loss the Ring, but more of everytime he would have to rebuild, he would lose power, weaken, and of course each rebuilding took longer than the previous. So, theoretically, you could defeat Sauron for good militarily...with or without the Ring's existance, Sauron could have permanently been defeated, if you just killed him enough times. At least according to one reference, which I'm pretty sure comes from Letters, so there might be some questioning.

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Instead, he immediately pulls all remaining Nazgûl from their duties bringing fear and despair to his enemies engaged in a decisive battle, and sends them to Mt. Doom. Seems a very desperate and terrified reaction to me.
Couldn't you say Sauron wanted his Ring back more than defeating his enemy? His choices more revolve on the Ring than defeating his enemy, because afterall he has an overwhelming amount of forces that could crush 'em anyway. But, his need for the Ring isn't driven out of fear that it would be destroyed, it is a fear the Ring could be turned against him.

This may be better suited for a different thread, but I've been working on the significance of the Sammath Naur. That is did the Ring actually need to get Frodo into the Sammath Naur to completely control him? By the time Frodo is getting there, we have no idea who is speaking, or who is in control...is it Frodo or is it the Ring? Also, we know that in the Sammath Naur is when the Ring is at it's maximum point of influence, so in order to gain complete control over Frodo, I wonder if the Ring needed to bring Frodo into the Sammath Naur? It's interesting , after being completely worn out and drained, near the Sammath Naur, Frodo suddenly finds the burst of strength to go running in...hmm.

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?
That is a very compelling theory, Boro. I like it. I'd rep you if I hadn't just repped you for the WW game.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?
If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:22 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.
Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:46 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.
Like when Gandalf says:
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I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.
Basically, in the same way that Olorin is no longer the second most important Istar, and so takes the place of Saruman, the new person who claimed the ring would be the Dark Lord in place of Sauron.
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Old 07-03-2009, 09:39 AM   #8
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Excellent thread Inziladun! This is a question that has nagged at me a bit, particularly where I am of the school that seeks to reconcile the internal consistency of the mythos when something that seems not to fit is found, rather than chalking it up to an error by the author.

Boromir88 refers to a statement which he could not locate that Sauron is considerably weaker in the Third Age. I have found the reference and will start there. Letter 183, in the note at the bottom of the page, states that Sauron "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." It may be that due to this loss of his native power and strength, Sauron assumed the Ring had been destroyed. It was not until the Ring later surfaced (literally, not just from the River Anduin, but also from the caverns under the Misty Mountains where Gollum had taken it) that the Ring "called" to its master, making him aware that it had not been destroyed. Alternatively, a simpler explanation may be that he learned of the Ring when Gollum attempted to find Bilbo and made his way to Mordor and was caught. In either event, Sauron knows the Ring still exists by the time of LoTR.

The interesting related question is why was Sauron's strength reduced at all. The Silmarillion states that the people of the Valar could "clothe" themselves in the form of the Children of Iluvatar or go unclothed " and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them". Their forms could be assumed and disgarded at will. Why then does the destruction of Sauron's form at the end of the Second Age so weaken him if it is a mere form?

Letter 156 states that the Istari, as a condition to their returning to Middle Earth, were required to not merely clothe themselves, but incarnate; to house their spirits in a physical body "capable of pain, and weariness... and of being 'killed'". But Sauron, at least in the Second Age, was not so incarnated. He could shift from form to form still. He takes up a "fair" form to deceive the Elves of Hollin and again to deceive and corrupt the Numenoreans. The Akallabeth relates that "Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep... until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible..." It did not take long for him to create this new "guise". Yet when he is "slain" at the end of the seige of Mordor, it takes him a thousand years to take up a new form.

It is likely this weakness and loss of power that led Sauron to conclude that the Ring, which contained much of his strength, had been destroyed and, of course, this is what should have happened and if roles were reversed, Sauron would have destroyed the Ring. This interpretation makes "sense" and would be logical to Sauron's mind (and Gandalf comments that Sauron was analytical and logical at least to his own mind; "wise fool"). But Sauron was deceived. The "slaying" of a form of the people of the Valar almost never happened. So Sauron may not have realized the extent of the effect of the loss of a form (or body, by the end of the Second Age, he may have been incarnated).

Going to Letter 200, Tolkien relates that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when he was vanquished. Sauron's shape "was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms." Tolkien explains that it took longer for Sauron to rebuild his body/form after the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil "because each building-up used some of the inherent energy of the spirit..."

It appears that the drastic difference between the loss of his native power after the Fall of Numenor and after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance may have been what tricked Sauron into believing that the Ring had been destroyed. A discussion for another day, and it may be question that cannot be answered, is whether there is a difference between the destruction the "form" in which a Vala/Maia is "clothed", and the destruction of a "body" in which a Vala/Maia is incarnated, and if there is a difference then why was Sauron incarnated?
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