Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband.

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

[Galin]

In letter 153 Tolkien does refer to the choice as irrevocable, and that it may be delayed but not permanently -- of course this is the very same letter that says the Sons of Elrond delayed their choice after Elrond sails! OK I can't fairly play both sides of that!

But in any case I think the choice is irrevocable, and though Arwen's response to Aragorn is open to interpretation, she does say she must abide the Doom of Men, whether she will or nill -- if Arwen is saying she must because there's no physical ship around -- in my opinion that loses force as far as the tale is concerned (that is, she is allowed to make a very important and hard decision, but then can repent when it gets tough to abide by it).

And still we know that Legolas built a ship after Aragorn died, which would arguably make her statement (if indeed not merely a poetic way to say 'it's too late my choice has already been made') not even so with respect to the possibility of finding a ship to sail West. Arwen is not some poor maid of Gondor of course, surely the wrights of Ithilien could have made her a vessel if desired.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Certainly Arwen was legally under a ban, not unlike that which had applied to her grandmother but of course for very different reasons. No elvish ship would have permitted her to board; and even had a ship of Men somehow found the Straight Road, she would not have been admitted. Her Aman visa had been cancelled.

The 'official witness' for legalistic purposes would likely have been Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as the plentipotentiary of the Valar in the context of Frodo. At what point was Arwen's "choice" deemed to have become effective? Either upon her marriage, or perhaps in a definitive statement to Gandalf as Manwe's temporary viceregent, I would venture.

But this of course implies nothing about some alteration to her body,* her hroa, which was of the Elvenkind, and thus immune to aging and sickness. One could I suppose imagine an "Oops-Arwen" lingering in Midle-earth for centuries, unable to sail West and unwilling to die, perhaps akin to the 'monsters' of Aman Tolkien posits. But instead she dies of her own (reluctant) free will.

*The movies' "Arwen is dying" rubbish, besides being nonsensical, is the most glaring evidence that PBJ never understood the book they were trying to adapt.

[Mithalwen]

I would have thought that Arwen's choice became final on her marriage. anything else makes a mockery and a nonsense of the pain of her choice for Elrond and her kindred. Had she been able to marry Aragorn AND remain accounted amongst the Eldar, Elrond would have surely waited for Aragorn's death before leaving - given his lifespan it would have been the equivalent of a mortal delaying about a year and a half (yes I have done the sums, sad bean counter that I am). For Arwen not to share Aragorn's mortality seems completely alien to Tolkien's concept of marriage or at least these idealised unions..

I am sure that Arwen did not age in body and thus her fate must have seemed all the harder - it takes bodily distress beyond hope of healing for most of us to contemplate death, as a gift. I think she died of grief.

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

As for Elladan, Elrohir (and indeed Celeborn), I guess they were on some mopping up detail and despite thier close association with the Dunedain I think they probably passed West for the reasons outlined by Ibri.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And it's interesting (though of uncertain import) that the Lords of Dol Amroth were never accounted "Half-elven;" just Men with an Elvish strain.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Arwen's statement to Aragorn on his deathbed that "there is now no ship that would bear me hence", when considered against the background that Legolas had yet to build his ship in Ithilien, is I think significant.

The physical ability to go West was still therefore an option for Arwen, because a ship would become available. So she either underwent some kind of physical change becoming mortal, and/or was banned from the West, and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

The same kind of strictures surely didn't apply to Elladan and Elrohir and I'm pretty certain they remained of elven-kind and could go West any time they chose during the Fourth Age.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

You misunderstand me. I am perfectly aware of who Mithrellas was! I meant that the marriage of Imrazor and Mithrellas doesnt fit in with the idea that Arwen had to give up her elvish life to marry Aragorn and might indicate that theoretically she might have done otherwise . If a silvan elf could marry a mortal and remain Elvish (and presumably pass into the West or return to her own people after it seems unlikely that Arwen would have to if Elrond were prepared to delay his departure (and thus the time of choice ) while Aragorn lived.

If you consider the other Elven/mortal unions that were desired (by one party at least) but not realised (Andreth/Aegnor & Turin/Finduilas), then the sundering of fates that is the main argument against. I don't have Morgoth's Ring with me but in The Silmarillion, Gwindor says " It is not fitting that the Elder children of Iluvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren". Now admittedly Gwindor was not to my knowledge in the confidence of the Valar but he was on the money in other matters.

Fate did suffer the union of Imrazor and Mithrellas for no higher purpose that to illustrate the ennobling qualities of even lesser elven bloodlines and to provide in Imrahil (always a favourite minor character of mine) an example of how Denethor should have been both as a viceroy and kinsman to Faramir. I find it highly unlikely that such nobility should have in it's origins a forced marriage even if a silvan elf (unlike one Eldar) could survive such an event let alone bear children against her will.

Earendil gets the choice because he goes to Aman. Mandos (whose words, one imagines, have more clout in such matters than most) says, "Shall mortal man step living on the Undying lands and yet live?" The matter only is discussed and decided because of Ulmo's challenge. This begs the question, what did Mandos decide with regard to Dior (and most likely Elured and Elurin) when they arrived in his halls before this time when he was presumably acting on his own initiative. He seems to have the default position that it is the father's race that counts in which case Dior was mortal. Yet he had an Elven wife and it is reasonable to assume that if he had been given the choice he would have chosen to be of the Eldar for her sake at least as Earendil did for the sake of Elwing. I do think it is highly unlikely in the light of the concepts of marriage expressed in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar - and of his own Catholicism, that Tolkien would have allowed any who had the choice. to choose a different eternal fate to their spouse.

Yes it can be hard to actually carry out things we have long committed to however wholeheartedly and it must have been particularly hard for Arwen that she did not suffer the physical decline that reconciles the mind to death as release, and that Aragorn gave up his life of his own will but it would subvert the whole thing is she had some get out clause at that stage.

As for Elrond learning of Arwen's choice the next words reconcile it to the earlier reference "When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he... found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.... I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." Arwen was born in the image of Luthien and to Elrond, farsighted beyond the usual Elvish intuition regarding their children, history repaeting must have always been a possibility - especially when she hadn't found a nice elf-boy to settle down with after a few thousand years... .

In the same paragraph Elrond says that Arwen "shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause". Elrond presumably knows the score and there is no possibility expressed that Arwen could marry Aragorn without choosing mortality. Aragorn also says to Arwen if she cleaves to him she must renounce the Twilight .

However though the choice is made it is only absolute when the condidtions are fulfilled and marriage has taken place for if Aragorn had died in the War of the Ring surely Arwen could have sailed West . After all Arwen's "I will cleave to you Dunadan..|" is expressing intent/desire.

The question of why the choice of mortality is binding on descendents while that of being immortal is not is also answered to my satisfaction at least in Appendix A "the Valar were not permitted to take from them (the Numenoreans) the Gift of Men. From the immortal perspective, release from the burden of immortal life was such a precious gift that anyone with the slightest entitlement to it should not be denied the opportunity. This certainly makes sense when you consider that Elrond's children were overwhelmingly immortal by bloodlines.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Dior is a very interesting case, especially since it could be argued that Luthien was already mortal when she and Beren actually married. But it's plain that the Valar hadn't really thought things through when Earendil turned up! (Unfortunately Dior was only 36 when he was killed, so we have no idea whether he had the "youth of the Eldar" or not).


According to Manwe in QS (1937):

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

This would imply that Dior and his sons were accounted Men. But would the folk of Doriath have accepted such a short-lived king, even if he was Luthien's son?

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The hypothesis (that E&E are simply Elves and have no choice) founders on the data:

These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

'... and the choice must soon be laid on your (Elrond's) children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Moreover, Manwe's declaration cited earlier, although admittedly written before Elrond's children were invented, noetheless undergirds a fundamental dogma of Tolkien's 'theology:' the Gift of Men can never be taken away. Elrond's children, since they have Mannish blood, would by default be Men but for their special dispensation; and in all events they must have the option of becoming fully Men.

It doesn't matter that E&E are 78% Elvish by descent- the Mannish element in their lineage cannot be ignored or denied, save by their own free choice.

[sneha]

I believe the choice cannot be take back. She chose to be a mortal and now she had to abide by it. As for Elladan and Elrohir I hope they went back to Valinor else it would be tragic for Elrond to lose all three of his children. I can understand their desire to delay the choice. Their sister and foster brother were in Arda plus it was the land of their birth. Just like Celeborn who wasn't weary of middle earth yet. Even Tharanduil's people were in Arda for some time.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

As I read the story Arwen hasn't aged when Aragorn dies. Although I don't think so, it is of course possible she would have died a natural death from old age had she carried on - remember Elros lived unwearied for around 500 years - but to me that's a moot question. As is talking about the 'legal' situation regarding her Valinor entry VISA, although I appreciate WCH's and Galin's efforts on the subject.

The choice of Arwen, as an descendant of Eärendil, is of course to share the fate of mortal Men and leave the circles of the world, or to sail West with her father and remain bound to Arda until the end. When she gives her heart to Aragorn, she is taking the former path, which I think in practice means that when she comes face to face with Mandos sooner or later he will send her soul to where Men go (Heaven, I suppose), and not the Halls of Waiting. Within the context of the story, the idea of Arwen repenting of her choice and begging for admittance on a ship heading West, thus ie abandoning Aragorn, or just living on in Middle earth, perhaps joining Maglor in his wailing, is preposterous. We may speculate about many what ifs, but in the light of Tolkien's (in-book) idealised view of love and marriage, there were only two options for Arwen: to join Aragorn in life and death or to remain with her father and pass West. The technicalities of the choice and its consequences beyond this is speculative and in the end without import - well, apart from the continuation of this thread, which certainly has a value of its own.

Edit: Jeez, the mental picture of Arwen the Warrior Princess is not a pretty one haha.