Suicide in Middle Earth

[alatar]

I miss my father at times, of course, but I try to look forward, as I am the father to my kids. When we speak about such things, I never hide that we all will die - with four kids, I'm constantly being plied with questions, and so it comes up. I've even been asked the second question, which is "why do we *have* to die?"

My answer's been that we need to move on, that we need to make room physically and emotionally for our children to grow. I guess that what I'm trying to say that I never truly will be a parent until I'm no longer anyone's child (or something).

This 'letting go' is, to me, consistent with what Tolkien was expressing.

[LadyBrooke]

I strongly believe that death is not the end but the beginning of something new. Which is probably one of the reason’s I enjoy Tolkien’s books so much - Death is not portrayed as the horrible thing that it is viewed as in the modern world but rather a natural part of life and a gift from Eru.

I suppose as a teenager who almost died as a child I can’t help but view it as something to not be feared. Once you’ve faced something once it becomes a lot less scary because you know you can handle it. A rather morbid view from a kid, but I’d rather spend my life living rather than spend it avoiding death. Also I’ve held pets while they’re dying - an inevitable when you have as many as we do - and when they’re just about to die you can tell they’re at peace. I’ve heard the same thing from many people who work in hospices.

I miss everybody in my life who’s died but at the same time I’m kinda happy for them. They’re in a better place which is all I want - for them to be happy and to have the same happen to me when it’s my time.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Excellent posting and a well-thought out philosophy
of life Ladybrooke .

Of course, in later Numenor you'd obviously be one of the Faithful,
challenging, especially if you're prone to seasickness.

[Sardy]

This calls to mind a related question - that of the idea of Faith vs. Knowledge in the elves. Perhaps if there is sufficient discussion, this should be given it's own thread...

Particularly of the elves born in Middle-earth (though possibly of the older elves, whereas memory of Mandos and Valinor might have faded to a dreamlike remembrance over the passage of millenia), is their eventual appearance in Mandos or journey to Valinor upon being slain or leaving Middle-earth forgone knowledge that they could count upon in their every day actions and decisions, or is it more akin to a strong conviction or faith, hoping for and believing in an "afterlife" upon leaving Middle-earth...?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sardy

This calls to mind a related question - that of the idea of Faith vs. Knowledge in the elves. Perhaps if there is sufficient discussion, this should be given it's own thread...

Particularly of the elves born in Middle-earth (though possibly of the older elves, whereas memory of Mandos and Valinor might have faded to a dreamlike remembrance over the passage of millenia), is their eventual appearance in Mandos or journey to Valinor upon being slain or leaving Middle-earth forgone knowledge that they could count upon in their every day actions and decisions, or is it more akin to a strong conviction or faith, hoping for and believing in an "afterlife" upon leaving Middle-earth...?

Well obviously they have no way of verifying it "physically" - they have never seen it with their own eyes. So it is rather, as you say, a strong conviction or faith. They have to believe what their ancestors and friends who claim to have spoken to Valar themselves etc., and to believe to the legends that go among the Elves since the beginning... but in fact, to be precise, even the Elves who had e.g. met Valar face-to-face don't have any absolute knowledge. If I am not mistaken, nobody of the living has been in Mandos to actually verify that the Elves are sitting there, no? The only exception would be Glorfindel (if he indeed is the same one), so he is the closest you can get to as "eyewitness". Apart from that? You have to believe the claims of the Elves around you, or even the Valar - it is still just believing their words, not anything else.

(But of course, as a note, the fact that it is not "knowledge" but "only" faith does not mean that they could not count on it in their every day actions and decisions. What good would it be for them if they didn't? That's no faith to speak of, obviously.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If I am not mistaken, nobody of the living has been in Mandos to actually verify that the Elves are sitting there, no?

The way I understood it is that most of the Elves do, eventually, come out of Mandos, and they reincarnate - like Glorfindel. However, none of the reincarnated save Glorfindel ever came to ME... unless some of those who came there during War of Wrath have been through Mandos. I doubt it, though. I think Mandos doesn't let fear out so quickly... but, on the other hand, Finwe waited for Miriel to return for a long time before marrying Indis. So for some (depending on their deeds during their physical life, I would guess) the period of awaiting a new body may be short, though it's always up to them to take it or to leave it...

Argh. To many what-ifs and on-the-other-hands. Am I some kind of octopus?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Argh. To many what-ifs and on-the-other-hands. Am I some kind of octopus?

Do not go to Galadriel for advice, for she shall say, yea, nay, maybe, on the other hand, perhaps, definitely...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

A rather morbid view from a kid, but I’d rather spend my life living rather than spend it avoiding death.

Far from being morbid, I think you've stated a very healthy outlook.

This last reading of LotR (6th), I noticed something that I had apparently forgotten about in previous readings: when Sam is alone near Cirith Ungol, in the chapter, "Choices of Master Samwise", he does actually consider suicide. His answer is decisive if vaguely thought. I found it quite fascinating that Tolkien would have even happy Sam think that way.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

This last reading of LotR (6th), I noticed something that I had apparently forgotten about in previous readings: when Sam is alone near Cirith Ungol, in the chapter, "Choices of Master Samwise", he does actually consider suicide. His answer is decisive if vaguely thought. I found it quite fascinating that Tolkien would have even happy Sam think that way.

Really? What exactly do you have in mind? Could you quote? (I am too lazy to look it up on my own now and anyway, I think for potential readers of this thread, it would be helpful as well.)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Really? What exactly do you have in mind? Could you quote? (I am too lazy to look it up on my own now and anyway, I think for potential readers of this thread, it would be helpful as well.)

Here it is (my italics & bolds below):

Now he tried to find strength to tear himself away and go on a lonely journey --- for vengeance. If once he could go, his anger would bear him down all the roads of the world, pursuing, until he had him at last: Gollum. Then Gollum would die in a corner. But that was not what he had set out to do. It would not be worth while to leave his master for that. It would not bring him back. Nothing would. They had better both be dead together. And that too would be a lonely journey.

He looked on the bright point of the sword. He thought of the places behind where there was a black and an empty fall into nothingness. There was no escape that way. That was to do nothing, not even to grieve. That was not what he had set out to do.

It is a very subtle (not quite the word I want) implication, but clear nonetheless. It also works as a comparison to Denethor, who professed to grieve but did not; rather as Gandalf said, to ease his own death-taking.

[Kuruharan]

I must admit that I'd never noticed that either.

Excellent find lmp!!

I think its interesting that it is a sense of duty that compels Sam to continue.

There might be something to be said for having something left to do.

[Inziladun]

I'd recently thought of starting a thread on this topic, but a search of the forum revealed this more than adequate discussion on the matter.
A lot of good points have been made, but I had a couple of observations.

It seems to me that Tolkien had a general disdain for suicides committed by his characters, at least in LOTR. In earlier stories, Túrin and Húrin don't seem to bear the judgement of the author, or any other character, though maybe the fact that a representative of the Valar was not present to give any such judgement was the difference.
On the other hand, in LOTR we do see Gandalf severely disapproving of the actions of Denethor in the latter's self-inflicted death by fire.
There might seem to be a double standard, though, related to the same book.
In Letters #210 written in 1958, Tolkien had harsh words after reading a screenplay of sorts for an animated movie that was in the works. One of his criticisms had to do with the treatment of Saruman.

Z (the writer) has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason in making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs was the sort of person he had become.

Tolkien almost seems to imply Saruman should have done himself in. Also, it's funny how he describes Saruman's chosen path using the words "cling to life": wasn't that a great sin of the Númenórean rebels? Is he saying Saruman's judgement might have been different if he had deliberately killed himself? Or is it merely a contrast to Gandalf, who didn't die by his own hand, but allowed the sacrifice of his mortal body in order to accomplish his errand?

On an unrelated note, I've wondered if Gollum's "slip" wasn't really a suicide, conscious or not. The suggestion could have been planted in his mind just before his death by Frodo.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

I can see Gollum welcoming death at that point, thinking that ultimately he had no hope in life, and seeing an out that would free both him and Frodo, whom he had gained at least some affection for. Was he deliberately careless after attacking Frodo, not concerned with his movements near the Fire? The book says his eyes looked up at the Ring as he took the fatal step. Simple Ring-lust, or a desire to have it be the last thing he saw as he fell? The book says he tottered on the edge, and wavered, but it doesn't look to me as if he really tried to save himself.

That's all just an idea, but I think it's interesting.

[Farael]

Well, it seems there are two things a man cannot resist, the lure of the One Ring and the lure of a good discussion in the Barrow Downs. A hearty hello for those of you who remember me! And another hello for those of you who will be hearing from me for the first time.

Talking about suicide in Middle Earth, and even though this has already been stated to a higher or lesser degree, I find there are two kinds of "self-inflicted deaths"

On one hand we have the relenquishing of life by the Kings of Numenor, which I've always thought was less of a suicide/self inflicted death and more of an acknowledgement that his time had come as ordained by Iluvatar (and thus, not really the King's fault). It was not borne out of despair or any other selfish feelings and perhaps it was not even a real choice for the king. It might have been a sudden insight that the time had come and that Illuvatar wished him to pass on to whatever fate men had. What man not swayed by the shadows would refuse Iluvatar's will? Thus it is not much of a choice, is it?

On the other hand we have the taking of one's life by violence, like Turin did when he took a dive on Mormegil. While one can say that his motives were altrusitic because all he had done had come to grief and thus by removing himself from Arda he would avoid bringing further trouble to his loved ones, it was a selfish act and quite likely against the will of Iluvatar. After all, if I know my christian theology properly, it is said that G'd has a plan for each of us and that no matter how tough things might look He knows what He is doing and in the end it all becomes clear. So assuming Tolkien borrowed from this tradition, by killing himself, Turin might've not only acted against Iluvatar's will but he might have also prevented Iluvatar's plan for him from being fulfilled. Perhaps Turin, after all his failures, would have in the end won a redeeming battle against Morgoth. We will never know.

Then there are other scenarios that have been brought up. Hurin's "last stand" is an example of, essentially, giving up on life (even if for a very altruistic cause). However, how does this fit in with Iluvatar's "plan"? Well, since Hurin did not slay himself and instead he fought hard and well against those who would slay him, it is clear he was not making the choice. If it was Iluvatar's will that he would die so others could live he was willing to make that sacrifice, but as we see that is not what happens. So Hurin is not making a choice that is not his to make (that is, WHEN to die) but rather making a choice that is very much within his responsability as a leader of men in war.

Finally there is the example of the elves which I find is no death at all (although that's not to say that there is no fault in it). If we part from the premises that
a) Elves do not really die the same way men do
b) The Halls of Mandos is a place of healing and restoring, and
c) The elves know this
then I hope we can agree there is no fault in allowing their fea to leave their hroa if they feel overwhelmed by Arda Marred. We must understand that elves (or at least elves in Middle Earth) are constantly faced with matters they were not "meant to". They were meant to be in Arda Unmarred and to take energy from Arda itself. Since they instead take their energy from Arda Marred, they will at times be caught in situations to which they are unable to find a way out. That's where the Halls of Mandos comes in, I have been slowly making my way through HoME and I just read "Laws and customs of the elves" (I think that's the name) and it changed my perspective on Mandos

I used to think Mandos was a place of punishment, and it may be after a fashion, but it is also a place of healing, where the discrepancies between what elves SHOULD have experienced (Arda Unmarred) and what they DO experience (Arda Marred) are reconciled so that the elf (if both him and Mandos so choose) can return to physical life.

So, while not exactly ideal or natural, the elves do not die as men do, and their (potentially temporary) lack of physical life does not mean an end to their spirit's life in Middle Earth. Conversely, for men there might be another kind of life, but it is beyond Middle Earth.

Unfortunately I've run out of time so I do not know if I'm making sense or not but must leave in a hurry . I will try to come back and edit this post later on tonight if I get the chance, but I hope what I wrote makes as much sense here as it did in my head!