The Way We War

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ha, yes, that actually sounds good. Indeed, it would have been shortened a lot, though.

I don't see why. Thorin (by the way, I love that everyone is using him as an analogy so often) wielded Orcrist, an elven sword, which was made to fit the stature of a tall elven king.

Originally Posted by Davem

An axe has the advantage over a sword in that its heavier blade (as has been noted) will break bones or damage internal organs even when there is no penetration. And swords blunt (& bend) more easily than an axe or battle hammer.

Exactly! thank you Davem for making that point. Not only does the axe have the power to wound its opponents upon the battle field, but it can also be crafted into different uses. As it has been mentioned, a Dwarf could take up a halberd for against calvary such as warg riders and wain riders; or a Dwarf could take up a small throwing axe (as seen in the trilogy) or a larger Francisca type axe.

Perhaps it was a familial thing, with the Iron Hill folk preferring mattocks over the Erebor folks use of axes.

It seems to be that this just proves that the Dwarves were in a hurry to get to Erebor and to aid Thorin. Mustering an army of 500 Dwarves in so short a time is no small feat and I'm sure they could not all be armed in time, ergo they would grab the closest fighting tool. What is a miners favorite tool (I mean besides dynamite): a pickaxe, or a mattock. Some interesting things about a mattock is that it has a flat edge for scooping at dirt and a pointed end (sometimes three pronged). With that sharp end on it, a Dwarf could easily pierce through plate and shield alike.

Continuing Eonwe's thought about Tuor, it is also worth noting that the most valiant and numerous house of the elves of Gondolin were the house of the House of the Hammer(Hammer of Wrath). They were great smiths and craftsmen, and revered Aulë. In battle they carried great maces like hammers, and heavy shields, for they had strong arms. The device of this people was the Stricken Anvil, and a hammer that smites sparks about it; this was set upon their shields, for red gold and black iron was their delight. So again we see the relationship between smiths and Aulë, to whom the Dwarves were obviously close to, and their favored weapon: the mace, or axe.

I would have to agree with those who say that Dwarves have the nature to go berserk in battle instead of fighting Roman style. The warriors of The House of the Hammer were certainly berserk in their fighting style and the reference to the Dwarves of the Iron Hills don't strike me as the organized type. Of course, if the Dwarves were to be fighting in an organized fashion, the Roman/Greek style would be the one that would make the most sense.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

It seems to be that this just proves that the Dwarves were in a hurry to get to Erebor and to aid Thorin. Mustering an army of 500 Dwarves in so short a time is no small feat and I'm sure they could not all be armed in time, ergo they would grab the closest fighting tool.

So, you're saying that they had no time to grab their axes, but had time to grab their short swords and shields and don their iron helmets and their chain mail hauberks and mail hose?

Ummm...no, Groin.

Mattocks would seem to be the preferred weapon for the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, with a sword as an auxiliary stabbing weapon for close quarter combat.

[Kuruharan]

I don't see why. Thorin (by the way, I love that everyone is using him as an analogy so often) wielded Orcrist, an elven sword, which was made to fit the stature of a tall elven king.

A very good point.

It must be remembered that Tolkien's dwarves were not as short as people tend to think they were.

They were certainly much taller than Lewis' dwarfs, for example.

I would have to agree with those who say that Dwarves have the nature to go berserk in battle instead of fighting Roman style. The warriors of The House of the Hammer were certainly berserk in their fighting style and the reference to the Dwarves of the Iron Hills don't strike me as the organized type. Of course, if the Dwarves were to be fighting in an organized fashion, the Roman/Greek style would be the one that would make the most sense.

Not sure that I see the connection there between the House of the Hammer and the dwarven fighting style. True there is the reverance for Aule and smithcraft, but other than that elves and dwarves tended to be very different peoples.

I don't think a berzerk fighting style would serve the dwarves very well given their generally shorter stature than their foes...yes I remember what I said above.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

A very good point.

It must be remembered that Tolkien's dwarves were not as short as people tend to think they were.

Even if Thorin was about 3-4 feet tall he would still have been capable of using a full size (3-3 1/2 ft sword) - take a look at this piece on Long sword fighting, particularly the bottom two pictures http://www.thearma.org/essays/Talhoffer/HT-Web.htm

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by davem

Even if Thorin was about 3-4 feet tall he would still have been capable of using a full size (3-3 1/2 ft sword)

Hobbits were 3-4 feet, and LotR Prologue says they were smaller than Dwarves. Personally, I imagine Tolkien's Dwarves as something between 4 and 5 feet (maybe a little closer to 5), which would mean that an exceptionally tall Dwarf might well pass as an exceptionally short Man (of non-Numenorean descent); and even an average-sized Dwarf would be able to use a Mannish or Elven sword like a claymore.

As for missile weapons, I wonder whether Dwarves had crossbows. If anybody in Middle-Earth had discovered this rather advanced weapons technology, I'd guess it would be Aule's inventive children. (On the other hand, this may well be just an idée fixe left over from countless hours of playing Elder Scrolls III and IV, where a Dwemer crossbow was one of the best ranged weapons you could get your hands on...)

Last not least, I'm not convinced that most of the Dwarves' fighting was being done underground. Unless they were really busy fighting nameless things gnawing at the roots of the world all the time, I'd rather think that any battle that had them facing the enemy within their own subterranean homes was already half lost. Wouldn't they do their damnedest to repel any enemy way before they came close to their gates?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Hobbits were 2-3 feet (except Merry and Pippin), NOT 3-4 feet.

[Kuruharan]

While it mentions the use of shields with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills (and let us not forget Thorin Oakenshield) the book also mentions the use of two handed weapons. How are Dwarfs suppose to fight in an organized fashion with no means of defense.

I wouldn't propose that they do at all. However, the shield appears to have been a fairly standard piece of dwarven equipment. Their standard practice may well have been to swap back and forth.

Unlike the sword, it does not allow for stabbing (well you can, as seen by the movie Gimli) and needs to be swung or chopped in order to hit your foe. If the Dwarfs are to fight in groups they would constantly be in danger of hitting one another.

However, when you are shorter and outnumbered, which they ususally were, fighting individually isn't a prudent course to pursue.

I wonder whether Dwarves had crossbows.

Never any reference to them in the books.

Hobbits were 2-3 feet

Two feet...that seems just a bit too small.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...even an average-sized Dwarf would be able to use a Mannish or Elven sword like a claymore.

I though a claymore was a super-sized sword, at least double the size and weight of a standard longsword, and only usable by unusally large and strong men.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I though a claymore was a super-sized sword, at least double the size and weight of a standard longsword, and only usable by unusally large and strong men.

I believe Pitchwife was referring to an average-size sword seeming like a claymore in the hands of a dwarf; rather like Sting -- a knife -- seemed to be a short sword in the hands of Bilbo.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So, you're saying that they had no time to grab their axes, but had time to grab their short swords and shields and don their iron helmets and their chain mail hauberks and mail hose?

You seem to be doing just fine assuming what I said, why ask? Don’t assume. But you are right about the Iron Hill Dwarfs using Mattocks.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't think a berzerk fighting style would serve the dwarves very well given their generally shorter stature than their foes...yes I remember what I said above.

One reason why I think that the Dwarf style of fighting would be more independent (I that is a better style to describe them than berserk) is the need for shields used by the Romans and Greeks. While it mentions the use of shields with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills (and let us not forget Thorin Oakenshield) the book also mentions the use of two handed weapons. How are Dwarfs suppose to fight in an organized fashion with no means of defense.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

On Dain's small army, if you think about, mattocks aren't actually that bad for fighting with. They can cause crush injuries through armour, and could also probably pierce it.

Exactly, Nain the son of Gror used a mattock in his duel with Azog. So the mattock must have been somewhat sophisticated for a King to have used it. Though, Dain II Ironfoot is described as wielding a “red axe” so the use of a mattock wasn’t universal with Iron Hill Dwarfs.

In my opinion, the battle axe is an offensive weapon made for keeping your foes at bay. Unlike the sword, it does not allow for stabbing (well you can, as seen by the movie Gimli) and needs to be swung or chopped in order to hit your foe. If the Dwarfs are to fight in groups they would constantly be in danger of hitting one another.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Exactly, Nain the son of Gror used a mattock in his duel with Azog. So the mattock must have been somewhat sophisticated for a King to have used it. .

Of course, the 'mattock' may not have been the actual mining/digging implement, but a weapon developed from it, as the medieval 'Bill' grew out of the agricultural implement of the same name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_(weapon). In other words, I suspect that the 'mattock' used could well have been a weapon based on the traditional mattock because that had a symbolic meaning to the dwarves, but with 'extras' - metal strips down the haft to prevent it being cut through, top spike, so that you'd end up with something similar to the war hammer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Not only does the axe have the power to wound its opponents upon the battle field, but it can also be crafted into different uses. As it has been mentioned, a Dwarf could take up a halberd for against calvary such as warg riders and wain riders; or a Dwarf could take up a small throwing axe (as seen in the trilogy) or a larger Francisca type axe.

Exactly, and as I was saying, Dwarves would have no problem making such weapons (or ones more adjusted to their way of fighting, or even just better- think they way we'd have gone with no gunpowder/explosives/greek fire). And as they are so strong and hardy, I suppose they could carry heavy weapons that humans of a similar size (or really tall hobbits) couldn't, and not get tired.

On Dain's small army, if you think about, mattocks aren't actually that bad for fighting with. They can cause crush injuries through armour, and could also probably pierce it.

I like the image of them being beserker warriors (not actually wearing bear skins, or being Beorn, but you ge t the idea), but I think they'd be a bit more organised (though not like the Roman and Greek phalanxes.