The Way We War

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That's where the Roman fighting method comes into play. Hunkering down behind a big shield and quickly punching out with a short sword (stabbing not slicing).

To my mind that's too 'organised' & regimented an approach for Dwarves - unless in extremis. I have always seen the Dwarves as more 'Berserker' in their approach to battle - charging at their enemies & screaming their famous battle-cry. Shields would be worn protectively across the back in battle, leaving both arms free to swing an axe/shoot a bow. Of course, if they had developed plate armour sufficiently there would be no need for shields at all.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ditto. An axe requires a fair bit of room, especially since (if Gimli is representative) they favored a horizontal swing.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

By Davem: To my mind that's too 'organised' & regimented an approach for Dwarves - unless in extremis. I have always seen the Dwarves as more 'Berserker' in their approach to battle - charging at their enemies & screaming their famous battle-cry.

A classic example (in tactics and in short-term
positive results) being Thorin's charge at the
Battle of Five Armies.

Of course, if they had developed plate armour sufficiently there would be no need for shields at all.

But another argument against dwarf open field
warfare could be their use of chain mail.
Even as good as mithrail mail was, it wouldn't help
with a key problem with chain mail, internal
injuries inflicted by either projectile weapons or heavy
swords.
Btw, meaning Frodo in Moria was either very lucky or hobbits
were really tough.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by davem

To my mind that's too 'organised' & regimented an approach for Dwarves - unless in extremis. I have always seen the Dwarves as more 'Berserker' in their approach to battle - charging at their enemies & screaming their famous battle-cry. Shields would be worn protectively across the back in battle, leaving both arms free to swing an axe/shoot a bow. Of course, if they had developed plate armour sufficiently there would be no need for shields at all.

That is a valid interpretation. However, mine is rather different as I do think the dwarves were more regimented and organized than the berzerker model, even given their descriptions in Tolkien as being axe-wielding.

However, when it comes down to interpretations like this on rather sparse evidence one is as good as another.

But another argument against dwarf open field
warfare could be their use of chain mail.
Even as good as mithrail mail was, it wouldn't help
with a key problem with chain mail, internal
injuries inflicted by either projectilee weapons or heavy
swords.

The problems of chain mail are true, but I don't recall any place where anything more advanced is described anywhere in Tolkien. It would have been a problem everyone was dealing with.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Thorin used a bow that just happeend to be lying around (implying that the dwarves kept stockpiles of them to use) to shoot at the messenger. The dwarves did use (without much success) the bows Beorn gave them...which I think has largely led to the stereotype that dwarves can't use bows effectively.

Slings would be an interesting weapon for dwarves to use if they were incapable of using a bow effectively, but I don't think there is a single example in Tolkien of a sling being used.

Thorin seized a bow of horn and shot an arrow at the speaker. It smote into his shield and stuck there quivering.

A pretty good shot, indicative of a dwarf who had used a bow previously.

As far as slings, I thought I remembered Hobbits using slings, but apparently they only were deadly accurate at throwing things (in a cursory glance over the books, I couldn't find anything else of value sling-wise).

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And in either case, we have the evidence of the Battle of the Five Armies, like Morth pointed out - I believe the equipment of a regular soldier - i.e. not the elite, but also not the random "armed civilians" - could have been like the one described there.

Well, 500 dwarves of the Iron Mountains under Dain used mattocks and sword, so it is evident that the use of axes was not universal in battle among dwarves. Perhaps it was a familial thing, with the Iron Hill folk preferring mattocks over the Erebor folks use of axes (and as Gimli's father was Gloin of Erebor, he would follow his direct kin's example).

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps it was a familial thing, with the Iron Hill folk preferring mattocks over the Erebor folks use of axes

I wonder if there was an interesting story behind that.

[Formendacil]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this catalogue of Dwarven battle-preferences harkens back to the First Age. From the Silmarillion:

Originally Posted by Of the Sindar

Therefore he called upon Denethor; and the Elves came in force from Region beyond Aros and from Ossiriand, and fought the first battle in the Wars of Beleriand. And the eastern host of the Orcs was taken between the armies of the Eldar, north of the Andram and midway between Aros and Gelion, and there they were utterly defeated, and those that fled north from the great slaughter were waylaid by the axes of the Naugrim that issued from Mount Dolmed: few indeed returned to Angband.

Originally Posted by Of the Fifth Battle, Nirnaeth Arnoediad

And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him.

Originally Posted by Of Túrin Turambar

But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.

Though not necessarily conclusive, these texts definitely support the supposition that the axe was the main weapon of the Dwarves--and it is a case outside Durin's Line. It's also interesting to note that the armouries of Thingol were partially filled by Dwarven smiths, listing axes as first among the weapons of the Sindar's armoury.

Originally Posted by Of the Sindar

At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off all creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were new-burnished. And that proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come.

Indeed, it seems to me that the Sindar have a preference for axes as their chief weapon, and since they learned the making of weapons not from the Noldor but from the Naugrim, this may be why. As evidence of the Sindar's preference:

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

Then Beleg Strongbow, chief of the marchwardens of Thingol, brought great strength of the Sindar armed with axes into Brethil; and issuing from the deeps of the forest Halmir and Beleg took an Orc-legion at unawares and destroyed it

Actually, from a related quote, it seems that the Halethrim, the people of Halmir, had a predilection for axes too... but this would seem natural, given that they were a nation of foresters:

Originally Posted by Of the Fifth Battle, Nirnaeth Arnoediad

. In the forest of Brethil Halmir, lord of the People of Haleth, gathered his men, and they whetted their axes; but Halmir died ere the war came, and Haldir his son ruled that people.

And, apart from a mention of the Noldor forging axes when they were busy with their initial forging of weapons in the unrest in Valinor incited by Melkor, that's it that I could find for axes in the Silmarillion. It definitely seems to show a Dwarven bias for the weapon.

[Kuruharan]

This may come as a shock to some...but I'm not particularly up on my metalsmithing.

But it seems to me that an axe would be a lot easier to make than say a sword.

Kind of odd for a race that prides itself on its metalsmithery.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This may come as a shock to some...but I'm not particularly up on my metalsmithing.

But it seems to me that an axe would be a lot easier to make than say a sword.

Kind of odd for a race that prides itself on its metalsmithery.

Depends on the kind of axe. If you look at the pic I linked to in my first post you'll see a number of variations. aside from the main blade you could have a hook or hammerhead on the back & a spike on the end (or both ends) of the haft.

A sword is an effective weapon against an unarmoured opponent, but its slashing effect is useless against mail, Brigandine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigandine or even a basic Jack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson. An axe has the advantage over a sword in that its heavier blade (as has been noted) will break bones or damage internal organs even when there is no penetration. And swords blunt (& bend) more easily than an axe or battle hammer. And we're talking actual combat here, so its all to do with effectiveness. A knight may have carried a sword for all kinds of symbolic reasons (it was the weapon of a knight, as I said, & the blade & hilts formed a nice 'Cross' shape for a Christian Knight) but on the field, particularly in the late medieval period when the development of plate armour had reached its apogee, it was fairly useless, & most knights would favour something with more weight & power like a poleaxe or battlehammer - remember, on the field you're not concerned with killing your opponents so much as with taking them out of the fight (they can be left to die, or despatched afterwards with a dagger). You'd go for something heavy which would do the job in as few blows as possible so that you could move on to the next guy.

[Boo Radley]

Since no one's mentioned it yet, I'd like to say that the thread title, "The Way We War" is punnishly delicious and I applaud the author, Kuruharan.