Who was the old man?

Originally Posted by alatar

And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk. What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk.

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?

What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:

Once I do not doubt that he <Saruman> was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he has plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue's task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went.

Friends don't let friends spirit walk.

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?


I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:

Friends don't let friends spirit walk.

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible! Could the power of Saruman be measured to such an extent as to rule out a relatively basic operation as creating a spirit of himself in other lands?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible!

Agreed. But one also should not consider something to be probable just because it is possible.

And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. But one also should not consider something to be probable just because it is possible.

And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.

There is more evidence from the text to support the view that the Old Man in some shape or form was Saruman, of course. My view is that it was a spirit of Saruman, rather than the physical form. The text does, to some extent, support this view, in the eyes of Gimli at least.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

There is more evidence from the text to support the view that the Old Man in some shape or form was Saruman, of course.

Not really. The Three see an old man. If they knew it were Saruman, they would have stated thus. The old man looked like Gandalf, and as the Grey One was a wizard, they assumed that this old man may have been Saruman as (1) they were near to Saruman's abode, (2) they'd been chasing the band of the White Hand for days, and so had White Wizard on the noggin, and (3) didn't know of every possible character alive (or possible) in Middle Earth at that time from which to choose. The number of old men known to Gimli and Legolas must have been limited, if they knew any at all, and as Lindir says in Rivendell:

"To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

...meaning that these two could, like Elrond regarding hobbits, have no clue regarding the variations in old male humans and/or those that appear thus.

Had they known it to be Saruman, they would not have asked Gandalf (which they too confused as possibly just some old man) who it may have been. Even Gandalf does not know with any certainty, as he says something like, 'then I guess you must have seen Saruman.' Maybe this creature that they saw is a one-shot, much like Bombadil but with much less documentation.

Of course I'm just arguing the other side.

My view is that it was a spirit of Saruman, rather than the physical form. The text does, to some extent, support this view, in the eyes of Gimli at least.

Again, interesting. I would like to read that evidence, if you have time or could point me in the right direction.

Originally Posted by alatar

Again, interesting. I would like to read that evidence, if you have time or could point me in the right direction.

That has already been answered in the very first thread post. A phantom = a spirit? Not impossible.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien ascertains that Grima poisoned Theoden, and then Wormtongue used his influence on the drugged king to further Saruman's interests in Rohan. I believe you are having yet another movie moment.

If Theoden was poisoned, it could have killed him given his age. And how did Gandalf manage to wear off the poison by his appearance alone in the Golden Hall? Whatever you are ascertaining above, give more detail please. Quote the full text from the source.