The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This has made me think about the rights and wrongs of what the Valar did.

The Valar were quite cruel, providing Men with this island from which could be seen a tiny little glimpse of the Undying Lands, a place where the people are immortals.

I would say the Valar were as equally short-sighted when they dragged off the Eldar from Middle-earth and kept them in Valinor (ostensibly for their own good). Granted, they earnestly wished to help the Eldar, but breaking up families in Cuivienen (remember, not all Elves wished to leave), and then practically ignoring those who stayed behind for many generations seems a bit callous.

Then of course fencing in creative, energetic folk like the Noldor was bound to cause friction eventually, even without Morgoth butting in. How long before the mean constraints of Valinor, however beautiful, would act as a catalyst for more adventurous Elves to yearn for more freedom? Galadriel, while not agreeing with Feanor and his sons, certainly longed for greater kingdoms to rule. In addition, Elves, like their mortal counterparts at times, seemed to always seek for that which they lost.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I would say the Valar were as equally short-sighted when they dragged off the Eldar from Middle-earth and kept them in Valinor (ostensibly for their own good). Granted, they earnestly wished to help the Eldar, but breaking up families in Cuivienen (remember, not all Elves wished to leave), and then practically ignoring those who stayed behind for many generations seems a bit callous.

Then of course fencing in creative, energetic folk like the Noldor was bound to cause friction eventually, even without Morgoth butting in. How long before the mean constraints of Valinor, however beautiful, would act as a catalyst for more adventurous Elves to yearn for more freedom? Galadriel, while not agreeing with Feanor and his sons, certainly longed for greater kingdoms to rule. In addition, Elves, like their mortal counterparts at times, seemed to always seek for that which they lost.

This adds grist to my mill that Being An Elf Would Suck. As if it's not bad enough being tied to the earth with no hope of a rest, and also being tied to whatever cataclysmic fate Eru has in store, the Valar come along like school prefects and stop you from venting your creative urges to the full through all the ages of your existence.

Would I have wanted to be one of the Moriquendi? Too right. I'd have tolerated Orc raids over beautiful boredom any day.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This adds grist to my mill that Being An Elf Would Suck.

Perhaps this explains the seeming death wish of some Elves -- a vainglory straddling the line of utter madness. I guess that's the point where Elves turn 'fey'. I mean, really, what was Fingolfin thinking going up against Morgoth? Was it necessary from a strategic standpoint? Did it serve any purpose whatsoever? It seems immortality may cause a distinct urge to gamble with one's life, or rather, a disregard or fearlessness of consequences.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps this explains the seeming death wish of some Elves -- a vainglory straddling the line of utter madness. I guess that's the point where Elves turn 'fey'. I mean, really, what was Fingolfin thinking going up against Morgoth? Was it necessary from a strategic standpoint? Did it serve any purpose whatsoever? It seems immortality may cause a distinct urge to gamble with one's life, or rather, a disregard or fearlessness of consequences.

Even so, there would be no guarantees once you had entered the Halls of Mandos. You may stay there or you may return to your/another life, but there is no way of telling. It's very different to the fate of Men who may turn fey in the belief (if they have it) that after death they would once again be with their loved ones so there is nothing to be lost.

Though after endless years seeing destruction and horror, especially in Beleriand while Morgoth was at large, I'm sure some Elves must have just snapped and lost it and literally threw themselves into battle. And who knows what went through the minds of the Noldor after they had stormed out of Valinor, lost kin on the Helcaraxe or the Kinslaying, maybe regretted their choice to leave?

[Morthoron]

Interesting that the word 'fey' has its root in the term faery itself (French, I believe, as in Morgan la Fey), thereby insinuating an instability in the Elvish (or, more properly, Sidhe) set in a classical sense. Reading something like W.B. Yeats' or Crofton Croker's folklore of Ireland, it's certainly reasonable to believe that faery-folk are unreasonable and more than a bit daft. They are certainly not a stable race in any case (which is reiterated for modern readers in Mr. Norrell and Jonathan Strange).

I wonder if Tolkien perhaps gleaned a bit of the Elvish feyness from 19th century English and Irish writers. I know he didn't care much for Gaelic mythology (Usnach, Cu Chullain, Redbranch, etc.), but Faery feyness abounds in more current Irish folklore (say, within the last 2 or 3 centuries), and in older tales Tolkien was more partial to, as in the Welsh Mabinogion and the Arthurian cycle as well (The Green Knight was not the most stable character, was he?). I haven't read any George MacDonald in the last 2 decades, but I seem to remember a great bit of feyness permeating his novels.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate

I have to note one thing which just kind of popped up at me here when reading this. From the theological point of view, the Fate of Men is actually of all the mythology something where Tolkien went probably the closest to the Christian message, particularly as given by the Resurrection. All the images of Valinor, Elves etc. are just "simple" things, and a view from indeed a mythology, which also Tolkien made fit into the mythologic world itself.

If you think about it, Men would be better off accepting their fate in a very real psychological sense. Denying death is not a healthy thing to do, as it comes to us all one day, and this idea has been explored over and over again by Artists. Even were Tolkien an out-an-out atheist it would make perfect logical sense for Men in his creation to be better off if they accept the inevitability of death - indeed that's one of the messages of Pullman's HDM and he has beliefs quite opposite to Tolkien's.

It is interesting how Tolkien though, of all people, counterbalances this with an examination of a race both immortal and bound to the fabric of the earth. I can't explain that.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interesting that the word 'fey' has its root in the term faery itself (French, I believe, as in Morgan la Fey), thereby insinuating an instability in the Elvish (or, more properly, Sidhe) set in a classical sense. Reading something like W.B. Yeats' or Crofton Croker's folklore of Ireland, it's certainly reasonable to believe that faery-folk are unreasonable and more than a bit daft. They are certainly not a stable race in any case (which is reiterated for modern readers in Mr. Norrell and Jonathan Strange).

I wonder if Tolkien perhaps gleaned a bit of the Elvish feyness from 19th century English and Irish writers. I know he didn't care much for Gaelic mythology (Usnach, Cu Chullain, Redbranch, etc.), but Faery feyness abounds in more current Irish folklore (say, within the last 2 or 3 centuries), and in older tales Tolkien was more partial to, as in the Welsh Mabinogion and the Arthurian cycle as well (The Green Knight was not the most stable character, was he?). I haven't read any George MacDonald in the last 2 decades, but I seem to remember a great bit of feyness permeating his novels.

Good observation! And if you think about Tolkien's Elves, laying aside the sensible ones like Elrond (who also is a particular friend to Men), you are correct, they are not exactly perfect and are tinged with more than a little lunacy. Witness the issues with Eol, his wife, his son, his brother-in-law; Galadriel's power lust; Feanor's temper; the defensiveness of Thingol and of Thranduil.

When Men like Eomer and Boromir express a certain amount of fear about Lothlorien they are only echoing the feelings of people in the real world when told a place was inhabited by fairies - they were and are (in Tolkien's work) pretty perilous and unpredictable beings.


Incidentally, what did you make of Jonathan Strange in the end?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Incidentally, what did you make of Jonathan Strange in the end?

Sadly, I found it unsatisfying. What started out as a very intriguing and ingeniously crafted novel slowly deflated over 800+ pages, and the climax and denouement did not make up for the loss of momentum over several hundred (or so it seemed) chapters. I found only a few characters I actually liked (Childermass for one), and the use of magic seemed far too over-the-top for a conservative like me, who believes in inherent magical ability used sparingly (or in the case of Uskglass, raised in Faery and imbued with magic via long immersion). For example, a mere mortal using a spell and moving an entire city (not an illusion, mind you, but actually lifting an entire city to a far-off location) disrupted the suspension of belief for me. And the liberal use of citations for mythical books was clever at first became more and more monotonous as the book progressed (rather like the endless citations and asides in Moby Dick, it eventually drives one to distraction).

If I were the editor, I would have perhaps cut out 100 or so pages (or as the Emperor said to Mozart, 'There are too many notes"). I was also bewildered that Strange brought himself to the brink of madness to save his wife, but then blithely traipsed off with that crashing boor Norrell rather than spend time with Arabella (the only settling influence he had). It was a very odd novel: so much to commend, but just as much to condemn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If you think about it, Men would be better off accepting their fate in a very real psychological sense. Denying death is not a healthy thing to do, as it comes to us all one day, and this idea has been explored over and over again by Artists. Even were Tolkien an out-an-out atheist it would make perfect logical sense for Men in his creation to be better off if they accept the inevitability of death - indeed that's one of the messages of Pullman's HDM and he has beliefs quite opposite to Tolkien's.

It is interesting how Tolkien though, of all people, counterbalances this with an examination of a race both immortal and bound to the fabric of the earth. I can't explain that.

Well but that's exactly it, I think - the more, in comparison to the Elves, the fate of Men stands out. The Elves are something totally alien from Men after all: or rather, something with a totally different fate. Where they share both the life in Arda (although each of them experiencing it with a bit different point of view nevertheless), the death of Men - and of Elves too, in the technical sense - is something completely different, there is a division that cannot be passed (as the tales of Beren and Lúthien etc. show in the brightest clarity). Middle-Earth is not Men's world, strangely enough. The Elves also, kind of, reflect something of the so often repeated (in RL tales, mythology etc.) idea of immortality. They are immortal, which also means bound to that world forever. Whereas Men are spared the infinity in this very same existence, their existence is seemingly mysteriously changed in some way (sure they are not anymore what they have been like while still alive), yet at the same time they seemingly remain themselves: their identity is preserved. Because we are told that Men will be present together with Ainur and the rest of the Children to sing in the Great Music at the end of days (see Ainulindalë). And that is what I had in mind when saying that it is probably where Tolkien succeeded the best (if he tried, or from where he tried) to reflect the Christian image of the world, resp. in this case human destiny in particular. I wanted to remark this purely from professional interest as it kind of popped at me. In case there were per chance any people interested in the echoes/depiction/not-depiction of whatever theological concepts in Tolkien's world reading it in the future.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Even so, there would be no guarantees once you had entered the Halls of Mandos. You may stay there or you may return to your/another life, but there is no way of telling. It's very different to the fate of Men who may turn fey in the belief (if they have it) that after death they would once again be with their loved ones so there is nothing to be lost.

I have to note one thing which just kind of popped up at me here when reading this. From the theological point of view, the Fate of Men is actually of all the mythology something where Tolkien went probably the closest to the Christian message, particularly as given by the Resurrection. All the images of Valinor, Elves etc. are just "simple" things, and a view from indeed a mythology, which also Tolkien made fit into the mythologic world itself. But here is the difference: the Elves remain there, but the fate of Men is to head out into something uncertain. Yet when they rely on that message that it's going to be fine, however not exactly certain what's going to be there, they have this promise that their death is not the last instance where all hope would be lost. So if they believe this thing, resp. person who told them that (now I am not entirely sure if Eru is that much of a reliably-looking one, but whatever - actually, it's more like that Eru is not much looking like anything, at least from my point of view, so that's a bit on a different level), I think by removing all the other mythological colorite etc. this is pretty much the closest to the "bare core" of the Easter message.

I am now speaking from the point of view of the Silmarillion, UT and such, I don't know if there's anything more in HoME or such (which could make it more or on the other hand less fitting). But that's how I see it.