Valar / Greek and Roman gods

[wispeight]

[QUOTE=Morthoron;566226]No need to be afraid, Mr. Redbeard, I don't bite...much.

Did you just trope his rhetoric?

I like the level upon which the gods were discussed on this thread. It was interesting.

Since I saw that Loki was included, I want to try and remember an opinion which was once put before me in regard to Loki falling out of favor with the other gods. He was often relied upon to get things done to the benefit of this or that god. While concurrently, being often reviled as a distasteful necessary evil. In turn, Loki did not agree with the self proclaimed perfection that the gods supposedly possessed with Baldr epitomizing it. I will not opine on what Loki or myself personally think about the attaining of perfection. I've read what opinion of perfection he supposedly had, and I have developed my own.

Loki supposedly killed Baldr and I feel that this might be mere assertion and it could quite possibly have been another god, jealous of the esteem Baldr enjoyed from so many deities.

I've read something indicating that Loki might pertain to a position not so distant in height above mind. That part of mind that can closely participate with matter, a more direct connect.

Maybe there is a moral somewhere among my above ramblings. This theme might point to the physical necessity of doing, and dammit! I just ain't perfect about it! and there is the problem, for it is intrinsic within us - whether we are aware of it or not- to always be striving toward the pinnacle of pefection. Deny it all you want as many as who might. OM

[Alfirin]

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

[wispeight]

I think the Valar are just as interesting and perhaps a bit easier to understand than the Greek gods. The number fourteen is an interesting aspect and draws to my mind the image of force and matter among seven grades.

I've put much more time into reading about the Greek gods, and only a small amount in comparison, to reading about Norse gods. It is easier to remember the latter. I'm choosing to refrain from speculating on why that is.

I watch anything that is LotR type of movie. It is very beautiful, and I am finding out some interesting insights into the late author and what he might have devoted a lot of study to.

[Lindale]

I just thought about this...

Even if JRRT stuck to the idea of Valar having kids, do you or can you imagine Manwe the Holy siring an indefinite bunch of kids in the grand tradition of Zeus, even if Zeus has many merits of his own? Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that. And from this maybe comes the really bad ton of fan fic about daughters-of-evil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that.

Actually, I can't. I think that Melkor fits the idea of having offspring of his own less than anyone else (well, maybe except for Ulmo, or maybe Mandos) - he was too concerned with other things, I would say "because of lust for power he forgot everything else". And anyway, Valar overall, the way they are portrayed in the last draft, seem quite detached from this and at least for me really hard to imagine - maybe except for one or two Vánas and Nessas, but that'd be about it. In other words, whether this was Tolkien's intention or not in this draft of the Valar or not, I think he succeeded in making the Valar truly "outworldly" in this aspect.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, Tolkien's notion of the Valar having children -- the Valarindi -- was his original concept for what became the Maiar. I'm going on memory, for the moment, but I seem to recall that at one point, there was Fionwe, the son of Manwe, and at another point, Eonwe and Ilmare were the children of Manwe and Varda. I don't recall any other specific mentions of such child/parent connections in the various drafts and notes Tolkien made, but I do suspect that Tolkien decided to skip this kind of human-like descendancy to avoid the kind of "earthy" similarity to the Greco/Roman pantheon, and to place it more in line with his personal religious views. The Valar and Maiar as we now know them fit well with at least some of the various choirs of angels of Judeo/Christian tradition, and yet maintain a certain feel of classical mythology.

[wispeight]

Wait a second. Are we talking about gods reproducing as if they are seperate male and female individuals that we are all familiar with here on Earth?

Well, gods are beyond me, I suppose they can reproduce any manner they see fit.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Actually, I can't. I think that Melkor fits the idea of having offspring of his own less than anyone else (well, maybe except for Ulmo, or maybe Mandos) - he was too concerned with other things, I would say "because of lust for power he forgot everything else". And anyway, Valar overall, the way they are portrayed in the last draft, seem quite detached from this and at least for me really hard to imagine - maybe except for one or two Vánas and Nessas, but that'd be about it. In other words, whether this was Tolkien's intention or not in this draft of the Valar or not, I think he succeeded in making the Valar truly "outworldly" in this aspect.

Actually, Legate, I got the idea from HoME, just can't remember which: the Balrogs were supposed to be his offspring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Actually, Legate, I got the idea from HoME, just can't remember which: the Balrogs were supposed to be his offspring.

But again, just in some of the early drafts, right? In any case, it never got to the "officially published" "completed" works.

[wispeight]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

~~~
I'm thinking that you were almost one hundred percent exoteric. Hel (queen of the underworld, or the dead), esoterically refers to the past. Fingernails also refers to something totally different than the image that the word describes. There is a reason, however, for writings to be written in a manner that hides the real meaning, so I will not go on about it.

I'm not certain, but I think Loki and Promethius might be analogous. There were many things contributed by seperate entities to create humanity, and the last one was very difficult to deliver to us without destroying us. Here I stop while saying only a little, and miolnir does not strike sparks from space to form worlds anymore, nevertheless this hammer still works as in our labors and toils and the pain which heals with wisdom, and keeping the latter and releasing the former.

[The Might]

Hmm, I get the point about the difference in feelings and actions. Seems there are less similarities than I previously thought.

[Rumil]

Interesting thread!

While there are some obvious parallels with the Greek (and by extension, Roman) Gods, eg Vulcan-Aule, Neptune-Ulmo, they seem to me to be about the 'area of responsibility' of each deity rather than their characters.

In character the Valar appear more similar to the Angels and Archangels of Christianity (and Milton), more serious-minded, and not running around seducing princesses while disguised as wildlife. And likely less fun than Dionysus at a party!

I noticed the Norse gods were brought up. In a way Tulkas reminded me of Thor (though without the lightning bolts etc), being similarly forthright characters.

Does anyone recognise the Valar in other Pantheons at all?

The Celtic gods seem a bit nebuous and tricky to tie down but Hindu perhaps? I'm afraid I know too little!

[Valesse]

To put my two cents in concerning strictly the Valar/Greek 'cross over', I'd like to that perhaps the Tolkien demi-Pantheon converts easier to the many 'lesser' gods/goddesses, some of which weren't anthropomorphic so much as personifications or some of the earilier generations. Nienna, seems to fit the 'personification' bill much nicer than Yavanna, for instance, who would make a wonderful good-natured havest goddess or titaness... like Rheia. Or the Greek Goddess Hebe (Daughter of Zeus and Hera) who matches fairly well with Vana.

I agree that the Valar are much more even natured compared to the Greek dubious dozen, but if you prescribe to nurture more than nature you've probably considered the fact that being eaten by dear, old daddy Cronus might make you a bit pessimistic too. Or to have the origin Aphrodite has? Yikes. I'd probably feel the urge to copy Nienna some. Now, I'm not aware of Tolkien's over-all philosophy, whether he bought into Locke or Hobbs or whatever, but I know the Greeks were realists. They knew Why Bad Things Happen To Good People (to borrow a phrase) and thats because they, simply, were people. Beliefs are created to explain the reason why things happen they way they do. The harsher religions tend to be older.

On that note... Rumil: I'd suggest looking into the Enuma Elesh and Hurrian-Hittite mythologies. They're from the same theological family as those of the Greeks and Romans with a few subtle differences (I'll just say that the Cronus character was being -nice- in the Greek mythology.)

But your interest in the Hindi religion did bring me to find Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, which counts the number of Gods as first 303, then 33; 6; 3; 2 and finally 1. I know that this refers to Hinduism as being monotheistic, though appearing polytheistic on the outset, but it brings back up Mothoron's comment about the Valar not really being Gods themselves, so much. They are part of Eru, the One, and have specific roles according to his will.

Linked to this is Nuer theology, which I think I see the closest connection. All of the Gods are actually one God with many forms (Kwoth). They're of the Above, which are revered far more (Manwe and Varda, etc.) and the Below (Yavanna and Aule, etc.). Unlike the Valar, however they are also not overly friendly toward human beings. They are jealous and greedy. (the Nuer protect their babies from the Gods/God by calling them ugly and spitting on them until they reach the second age-grade. It's really a fascinating culture.)

From where I sit I see a kind of theological gradient:
Greco/Roman > Nuer > Hindi* > Valar

* My knowledge of Hinduism is somewhat more than just lacking. I'd love it if someone would correct my points.

This is an excellent topic, Might

[wispeight]

I find that my scope of ignorance expands in direct proportion to my increase in knowledge. Buddhism and that which is among the Pali and Sanskrit have probably been best at not corrupting through interpolations and omissions. Superstitio is a word originally meaning 'that which is added upon or to a thing'.

I would not say anything about any religion which might appear negative, as I believe that they all strive toward universal principles. I strongly suspect that there is at times, one Mother Religion, where a global accord exists on this point. Plato and the latter - and perhaps better - Neo-Platonists were very comprehensive as well. I simply believe that the doors close when great leaders of men express sefish aims. We are only beginning to recover from these closed doors. I think the doors began closing around the time of King Croesus and Agememnon. They definitely closed around 2nd century A.D. and the Dark Ages occurred shortly thereafter in Europe.

These fourteen Valars might represent seven forces and seven elements gradually becoming more ethereal as they ascend. Seperation is not so much a thing to focus on as is interpermeation. Our attractions in life and our inner state might represent an idea of what we might have to experience after or in between death and rebirth. But only to slough them off, or not requiring that depending on the individual. From the very tiny bit that I have learned in the past five years, I'm learning that maintaining an even temperment for the most part indicates I might be on the right path. I'm not saying extremes never have any role to play, I only think that it better not be self-centered selfish motivations.

I came to this site because I love the "Lord of the Rings" movies, and watch them everytime they come on tv. I haven't yet seen anyone mention their interpretation of 'Middle Earth' other than the hollow space in this planet. Please, I don't want to hear about the earth being hollow. Perhaps I should start a thread concerning that very question, but then I'd have to oversee it, and don't know if my other activities would allow it. I realize I'm likely being ignorant as it probably already popped-up here and I should have looked.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A brief note to that Hinduism thing. It's so that Hinduism represents a rather diverse collection of all sorts of beliefs in local gods, various traditions from various ages, various views of the world-order (from the brahmanism through upanishadas etc.). I am pretty sure you would find some gods in there which you could compare to some of the Valar pretty well. But it's not like that "in Hinduism, there is X gods", and then some specific order or structure between them. Hinduism, in fact, represents simply anything that is religious and comes from India at the same time, if I say it in somewhat simple way. The only thing is, that there is the attempt to ultimately reach the "main" gods, or maybe better to say "the gods above gods", if I am to hold this terminology (basically three, or two, or depends, it varies among certain specific traditions). But anyway, it's all somewhat complicated and I don't want to go deep to it here because that would be probably for long, but overall I believe it's quite alien from the concept of Valar and such. Also because again, the "nature" of the gods is a lot different from the one of the Valar, or even the Greek gods. In my opinon, when we are comparing, the Greek, or European pantheons in general are far more fitting, simply because they are European and M-E is rather European than anything else.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by wispeight

Loki supposedly killed Baldr and I feel that this might be mere assertion and it could quite possibly have been another god, jealous of the esteem Baldr enjoyed from so many deities.

According the earliest sources it was Hoðr (Hod) Baldr's brother who killed him by throwing a spear (or shoting an arrow) at Baldr. This spear (arrow) was made of mistletoe, the only object that did not vow not to hurt Baldr. Of course Hoðr was tricked into this by Loki, but still. . .
Anyways I have not seen any indication that any God other than Loki had a desire to kill Baldr.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

He was definitly Odin's bloodbrother, but it is hard to tell if he was a giant or a god. . .There is no real consistency in what the sourses say.

Anyways I just want clarify that it was Idun who was the keeper of the Golden Apples.