LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 06 - Lothlórien

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I have managed to save some of my time to make a post here, and so if anyone is following the current CbC project still, here you have my post concerning the sixth chapter of Book Two.

For start, I would dare to disagree with Esty on what she said in the opening post of this thread: that the second part of the chapter, as the Company enters Lothlórien, becomes more poetic. I must strongly disagree. The whole chapter is unbelievably poetic and wonderful. All right, maybe Lothlórien seems more so because it is Lothlórien - but - maybe also after the long underground darkness - the images of lakes, mountains, rivers and trees under the sun and dark nightly skies described in this chapter are so vivid that I can almost feel being in there when reading this chapter. Is this what Sam says close to the end of this chapter - his wonder over the "reality" and the "elfiness" of the forgotten yet present land of Lothlórien? Possibly. How do you feel? Does this chapter have as strong impact on you, literally "drawing you inside the world"?

I cannot possibly stop at all things, I would have to quote the whole chapter to capture its beauty, and even that probably won't be possible. I can only suggest to everyone to try to focus on the beauty of the Mirrormere, mountains, first trees of Lothlórien, the falls of Nimrodel and the early morning on talan and the moment when the visitors' eyes can see Naith for the first time, and Cerin Amroth as described here. I would have to stop at the image of Nimrodel, as it seems to contain very strongly the trait many of Middle-Earth's rivers, or waters overall have - the ability to convey a message, and the magnetism of the water itself (Frodo does not want to leave), not to speak of its beauty. And here comes also the etiologic tale about Amroth and Nimrodel, which is a beautiful and sad tale, even though just outlined here, but by a song which is so beautiful so that it rests in my head and sometimes gets awakened when I see a larger area covered by water, and I have to start to think about it (however with melody composed by a Czech singer - Jim Čert - who is, let's face it, not making very inventive melodies; however here it does not matter to me).

I can't say many other things I would recall from this particular reading, I was so overwhelmed by the images, as I said above. I could add a personal remark, only on one of the later readings I actually discovered that close to the end of the chapter, Frodo together with Haldir look at Dol Guldur. My joy, and the feelings I got from the Elf's speech to Frodo, are understandable given that I am Legate of Amon Lanc. Theres is an interesting remark (which I think again, many people don't stop at when reading) that the Enemy had been driven away from Dol Guldur, but he reoccupied it, "now with power sevenfold". Did you ever think what this could mean? For me, it never meant simply "there used to be 100 Orcs and now there are 700". Not sure why, but the quote looks more... metaphysical to me than anything else. I am leaving this open.

And the last thing. Did you realise we probably learn about Uglúk's company already in this chapter? No, I don't mean the Orcs who pursue Fellowship into Lórien - if we are to trust Haldir's words, "neither of them will leave Lórien alive". But he mentions a squad of Orcs going to Moria several days ago. Now these clearly cannot be the Moria Orcs - they could also be the Uruks from Mordor mentioned in the previous chapter; however Uglúk's company also had some Orcs from Moria with them. The argument for these Orcs not being Mordor Orcs would be the direction from which they reputedly came - I would assume Mordor Orcs would come from the east; while these headed northwards across the rivers (?). So, who knows...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And the last thing. Did you realise we probably learn about Uglúk's company already in this chapter? No, I don't mean the Orcs who pursue Fellowship into Lórien - if we are to trust Haldir's words, "neither of them will leave Lórien alive". But he mentions a squad of Orcs going to Moria several days ago. Now these clearly cannot be the Moria Orcs - they could also be the Uruks from Mordor mentioned in the previous chapter; however Uglúk's company also had some Orcs from Moria with them. The argument for these Orcs not being Mordor Orcs would be the direction from which they reputedly came - I would assume Mordor Orcs would come from the east; while these headed northwards across the rivers (?). So, who knows...

I believe you are right that the Orks going to Moria probably were Ugluk and his possé. IMO this charming bunch must also have been responsible for the fire intended to trap the fellowship, having been ordered to do so following the events taking place outside the west gate.

This raises several questions for me. Firstly, who gave them the orders? Sauruman, surely. But there were Orks of Mordor travelling with Ugluk and company too. And I've always assumed that Sauron was behind the warg-attack on the fellowship. Yet the birds who flew over their heads were identified as Saurumans spies. Perhaps the two villains were working together to some degree? Also, how could Sauruman or Sauron get the message across to the east gate so quickly? It is a long way to Moria from Isengard on either side of the mountain range, and further still from Mordor. Sure, both of them had palantirs for far-seeing, but their servants did not, and could therefore not have recieved any orders from a crystal ball. Sauruman certainly had swift birds who could have delivered him the news quickly, but surely not quick enough to send a squad of Uruks to the east gate before the fellowship could pass through Moria. The only answer I can find is that the servants of Sauruman or perhaps Sauron independently ordered the spybirds to cross the mountains and deliver the message to troops already assigned to the area.

And where does the Balrog fit into this. Did it work independently, or was it subject to Sauron's authority? As it chased the fellowship straight down perhaps the only path that could have saved them, as it led to a doorway behind the fire, I find it unlikely the Balrog had anything to do with the 'trap' at the gate. Besides, the idea of a Balrog working for Sauruman is ludicrous. But could Sauron subjugate the Balrog? I think he might be able to, but to me it is more probable that he wasn't even aware of the Balrog's existance.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This raises several questions for me. Firstly, who gave them the orders? Sauruman, surely. But there were Orks of Mordor travelling with Ugluk and company too.

Careful! It was not like that. We are going a little ahead here, but just to clear this up: Grishnákh and his bunch joined Uglúk only later. There was a group of Mordor Uruks in Moria, but I think these were in Moria before, no doubt simply stationed there as part of Sauron's "block all roads through which the Ring could go" strategy. As I see it, Uglúk was sent from Isengard (probably based on the Crebain information) towards Moria, he did not succeed in catching the Fellowship there, but with his leadership taking advantage of the mess made by the Fellowship's passage and taking some of the infamous "mountain-maggots" with him. Then only later, Grishnákh crossed the river and joined him, simply because he had orders to get the halflings. First, they could work better together; second, Uglúk was in the lead and had the halflings (Grishnákh seemingly returned to the river later to ask the Nazgul for verification what he should do since the hobbits were carried towards Isengard, and he was seemingly sent back to accompany Uglúk just if there was a chance to get the hostages back).

And where does the Balrog fit into this. Did it work independently, or was it subject to Sauron's authority? As it chased the fellowship straight down perhaps the only path that could have saved them, as it led to a doorway behind the fire, I find it unlikely the Balrog had anything to do with the 'trap' at the gate. Besides, the idea of a Balrog working for Sauruman is ludicrous. But could Sauron subjugate the Balrog? I think he might be able to, but to me it is more probable that he wasn't even aware of the Balrog's existance.

Of course independantly; and I think the last sentence you post would be close to the truth. After all, in fact seemingly no one was aware of him (the only one among the living who actually saw him before the Fellowship came was probably Dáin).

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Careful! It was not like that.

T'was, I swear sir!

Then only later, Grishnákh crossed the river and joined him, simply because he had orders to get the halflings.

Well, I trust that you are correct about this

I guess my argument hinges on the fire intended to block exit out of the east gate, not entry into it I emphasive. If this fire's constantly being maintained as a precaution I've no case, but I don't think a fire of this magnitute could or would be maintained indefinitely. Besides, who'd expect anyone to try to pass through Moria? I believe the fire was lit with the explicit intent to stop the fellowship that entered Moria a few days earlier through the west gate from ever reaching the east gate and the sunlight on the other side. The problem with this interpretation is, of course, the issue of how the hunters twarted outside the west gate could alert their colleagues on the east side about the expected arrival of the fellowship, before it was too late and they'd already passed though. It also makes you wonder just how much Sauron and Sauruman respectedly knew about what was going on in Moria, and of just who it was that sounded the alarm.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Well, I trust that you are correct about this

Not 100%, I must note, but I presume that from what we know.

I guess my argument hinges on the fire intended to block exit out of the east gate, not entry into it I emphasive. If this fire's constantly being maintained as a precaution I've no case, but I don't think a fire of this magnitute could or would be maintained indefinitely. Besides, who'd expect anyone to try to pass through Moria? I believe the fire was lit with the explicit intent to stop the fellowship that entered Moria a few days earlier through the west gate from ever reaching the east gate and the sunlight on the other side. The problem with this interpretation is, of course, the issue of how the hunters twarted outside the west gate could alert their colleagues on the east side about the expected arrival of the fellowship, before it was too late and they'd already passed though. It also makes you wonder just how much Sauron and Sauruman respectedly knew about what was going on in Moria, and of just who it was that sounded the alarm.

Err... not sure if you understood me correctly: I did not say anything about the fire thing or anything that would concern it. I replied only to what I quoted and what you can read from my post. I would agree that the fire was probably lit just as you say, for a short time to cut off the Fellowship about whose presence the Orcs have learned (probably after Pippin cast his infamous stone into the hole in the floor). If you referred to my "block all roads" comment, it did not refer to the fire, but simply to the presence of the Mordor Orcs themselves, who were to wait there and do something (like get the lazy mountain goblins act) in case the Fellowship showed up.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Err... not sure if you understood me correctly: I did not say anything about the fire thing or anything that would concern it.

You are of course right about that. But I don't think you really understand my main point either. If the fire was lit by the native orks of Moria or stationed Mordor sentinels alerted by Pippin's mishap, then why did they attack the fellowship in the manner they did? Why light a fire intended to cut escape off and then chase the hunted straight down perhaps the only escape route? That makes little sense. The fire, I belive, was lit by the Orks entering Moria, already alerted of what had happened at the opposite gate and aware of some of it's consequences. The Orks attacking the fellowship must IMO have been a separate group, perhaps under the command of the Balrog, but without any clear knowledge of the fire intended to trap the fellowship. Cus like I said, if the attackers were the ones who lit the fire, why then chase them down the emergency exit? Perhaps they they just didn't study the blueprints? Maybe it was all a mistake?

Orc 1:"I told you to light a fire to the right of the emergency exit, not to the left of it you, you lousy maggot!"

Orc 2: "Sorry boss, I thought you meant my right, which is your left, if you see what I mean sir...

(getting a bit off topic here, sorry)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, I see. But then, to settle the matter, I think the answer is in the book. Gandalf says:

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-Dum

If we had come by the main road down from the upper halls, we should have been trapped here

And if you remember, the Chamber of Mazarbul was one of the side chambers of the large hall to which the Fellowship arrived, and to which they intended to return after they spent enough time at Balin's tomb. So, the Orcs' original idea was: light a fire by the main route (assuming, quite correctly, that the Fellowship would use the main route) and attack the company from behind, so that they cannot escape. By taking a turn and leaving the main route for a short while, it happened that when the Orcs arrived, the Fellowship was off-course for the planned trap. It could have still gone well for the Orcs, had they allowed the Fellowship to return to the main hall - which, actually, not to be too unjust to Orcs, they could have done; but it was the Fellowship's choice to block the door and defend themselves inside the room. This way, the Orcs had to attack them in the room, thus discarding the possibility to catch the Companions in the fire. They still had a good chance in at least pursuing the Fellowship (the Orcs still were in larger numbers), however the collapse of the chamber after Gandalf's spell duel with the Balrog forced them to use the route they themselves trapped before.

So, hope this explains it, and if so, settles the question