Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kath

Haha Lommy I can't believe I'll be your daughter! But go on then. Good to have me ol' dad back and having sally for a sister ought to be fun!

Oooo, I get a sister to fight....erm, I mean play with!

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by tp

Mac and Rikae, may I be your son?

Consider yourself adopted, my lad.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Mac and Rikae, would one of you like you be my sibling?

Hey! I always wanted a little sister.

[Nogrod]

Let's start with the basics of the game. It's good to remind everyone of them as just a few of us were in the first DW game and not all have read the lengthy discussions about the rules that preceded and followed the first DW-game.

The village must be huge. And it looks good now.

There are two wizards, a good wizard (GW) and an evil wizard (EW). They lead their respective teams. The wizards can't be lynched. They can only be killed by the other wizard in a duel which will end in both of them dying and the game turning into a normal ww-game from that on. We will probably enforce a ruling that no wizard-duel can take place before Day3 or something.

The wizards scry minions during the Night, their minions being wolves and gifteds. One thing that needs to be decided is whether there is a limit to the number of minions each wizard may have. In the first game there was no limit to the number of wolves the EW could scry but there was a limit of three gifteds for the GW - also the EW scried three wolves on Night1 and the GW only one gifted. This is slightly balanced by the fact that when the EW scries a gifted that person only changes to an ordo but when the GW scries a wolf that person turns ordo as well. So scrying each other's minions makes EW's minions to switch sides whereas GW's minions stay on the good side.

But many people thought there was a slight inbalance in there and that should be considered. One idea is to give the GW also three minions on Night1. Another possibility is to limit the number of minions in a general way, like if 1/4 of the villagers are already wolves the EW can not summon any more or if 1/5 of the village are gifteds the GW can't turn new people into gifteds... or something along those lines.

The minions can suggest and argue their points (whom to kill, whom to dream or protect etc.) to their wizard during the Night but the wizard has the power to overrule her minions ideas. Also the wizard should feel free to consider herself what to tell her minions. She can stay hidden from them, she can decide whether to let her minions know the identities of each other or not, she can lie to them, she can mislead them or tell them the truth.

The ordos just try to do their best to catch the wolves like in any game - and have fun doing it!

The innocents win when the EW is dead and there are no werewolves left. The evil side wins when the number of innocents is same or less than the number of wolves.

More later...

PS. the families are updated once again.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by the phantom

2) Anyone want to be my brother or sister?

I'll be your sister.

I might have to live out in the shed in secret though if your adoptive parents only wanted one child. You know, a son to do the chores.

[Thinlómien]

Diamond joined too! Yay!

Originally Posted by Mac

Hey! I always wanted a little sister.

Great.

You know, everybody, this is looking awesome. This game just can't be bad.

Concerning the rules, then. I'm just checking, but isn't it so that when the wizards die, the game setting is fixed and the wolves will be told one another's identities and it becomes a regular werewolf game?

What happens if one wizard scries the another? Is it so that in that case she learns his identity?

And if they scry the same person, s/he dies. Right?

Also, I think there was two wolf kills per Night in the beginning of the last game. Will it be so again? If yes, how long will it last?

When the GW (or EW, for that matter) has reached their minion quota, how will their scryings affect things? In no way, except that they can find the other wizard? If we give the EW no limit in how many wolves he can have, I suggest that when the GW has reached the gifted limit, her scryings may count as ranger protections.

What happens if the wolves attack a wizard during the Night? No kill? Will the wolves or the EW know that they targeted the GW (as they probably won't target the EW if he's the one to have the last word on the kill)? What if the hunter decides to take down a wizard? Nothing? But then everybody will know that the hunter targeted a wizard... If the hunter targets the EW could the GW be told about this, thus compensating for the lack of hunter-kill? Or will wolves and/or hunters get a second chance if the one they want to kill is unkillable?

Everybody new to the DW, feel free to ask me to elaborate, I'm not sure I explained it newcomer-friendly. Also, pester Noggie with questions: if I didn't know anything about DW, his explanation might leave me uninformed about quite a lot of facts...

[Nogrod]

Great to see you Diamond! I've added you to the list and let's hear what Rikae and Mac will think about you joining the family or whether you should stay as an "outsider" what comes to the families...

And good to see someone making the tough questions! *cheers Lommy*

Originally Posted by Lommy

isn't it so that when the wizards die, the game setting is fixed and the wolves will be told one another's identities and it becomes a regular werewolf game?

Exactly.

What happens if one wizard scries the another? Is it so that in that case she learns his identity?

Yes. And basically either wizard can decide when to challenge the other one into a duel after she has learned the identity of the other one. That duel will take place only during a Day and will end up in both of the wizards dying.

And if they scry the same person, s/he dies. Right?

After all those lengthy discussions I'd be inclined to say yes. That's the simplest solution. Too much magic on one person in one Night... There will be a special arrangement on Night1 though when both wizards will produce a list of six to the mod(s) from which the minions will be dealt to them randomly (looking that neither wizard gets to know the identity of the other one) and from which the GW can then deal the gifts according to her will.

Also, I think there was two wolf kills per Night in the beginning of the last game. Will it be so again? If yes, how long will it last?

Now you made a tough one. I had thought of this before but I don't know yet. There is a sense why a larger wolf-party should have more kills but where to set the limit? I'd say three wolves will not have more than one kill but maybe four could - or am I just being too careful? In the end the village will have 20+ players so we need to get people killed as well - as nasty as that is for anyone getting killed too early.

Your two last questions are too hard - and they have been discussed extensively with multiple argued positions this far - so let me gather my thoughts and answer them in preliminary way in a moment...

And throw in your two cents everyone!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

There is a sense why a larger wolf-party should have more kills but where to set the limit? I'd say three wolves will not have more than one kill but maybe four could - or am I just being too careful? In the end the village will have 20+ players so we need to get people killed as well - as nasty as that is for anyone getting killed too early.

I think it's not about the amount of wolves, but rather about the amount of villagers in total. The game will last for ages (it's going to be a long game in any case, I know) if we have 25 or more players and only one kill per Night. Maybe something like the wolves have two kills until the village reaches a certain size? What is "certain size", that can be debated. 18 villagers? 16? 15? More? Less? Personally, I think 15 or 16 would be good as that would be the size of normal big-ish village.

[Thinlómien]

In the previous game, there was a limit that the GW could only name one seer, one ranger and one hunter. Will there be such a limit again? I know you haven't decided how many gifteds there can be in total, but will there be some sort of ratios, like one third of them should be of each kind or will you let the GW decide what kind of giteds she wants? Or will you let her decide freely, but set some limits, like "there must be one gifted of each kind all the time, the rest can be whatever" or "there can only be two seers at most at a time"?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I think it's not about the amount of wolves, but rather about the amount of villagers in total.The game will last for ages (it's going to be a long game in any case, I know) if we have 25 or more players and only one kill per Night,

Game-mechanicswise that's exactly the point. But thinking about the setting as a story it would be more credible to tie that number of kills to the number of wolves and not to the number of villagers.

I think we have two possibilities.

Either we say that when there are three wolves or more there will be two kills / Night (and maybe when there are five wolves then three kills?).

Or either we say that if there are more than three wolves they gain two kills / Night (and with six three?).

It's an important decision as it will decide how many kills the wolves can make in the beginning of the game.

I need to go back and check the settings in the original game to consult them.

But now there will be Finland - USA in the ice hockey world championships and I will watch the game first...

EDIT: tried to make myself more clear with underlining & bolding

[Lalaith]

I think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)
What do you reckon?
Oh and if The Ka is still playing I'd love her to join my family in honour of our mutual love of a certain band...

[Kath]

Um, Nog, aren't your two possibilities the same? Or are you saying that either a) two kills if there are three wolves, or b) two kills if there are more than three wolves?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by nilp

We do have pet wolves at home, but that's the extent of our eccentricities.

Unless you'd like an eccentric old mother-in-law... I was thinking I'd like to play a scary old lady who grows herbs and practices fortune-telling and some kind of healing, the sort that everyone visits every now and then though no one admits doing it... I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one. (That would make me also a grandmother for Sally, Kath, the phantom and Diamond and a lovely mother-in-law for nilp and Rikae..)

If anyone wants to be my apprentice (that would be way cool), spouse, sibling or yet another child, that would be nice as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Once again: Oh-my-who-is-supposed-to-read-this? (Well it's a thread started by Nogrod, after all )

I don't know yet about playing, it will be running right during my exam terms as it seems. Although... *ahem* Well there's another thing which could decide it better: I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog? What do you think?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Noggins-Woggins

The wizards can't be lynched.

So if a wizard is voted out, it means that s/he is revealed because s/he isn't lynched regardless of the amount of votes s/he receives?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)
What do you reckon?

I think that in the last game the GW's picks were only limited so that he could have only one seer, one ranger and one hunter at a time. I think it's a better way of limiting the gifteds than banning renamings in case the original gifted dies or becomes ungifted.

Originally Posted by Legate

I don't know yet about playing, it will be running right during my exam terms as it seems. Although... *ahem* Well there's another thing which could decide it better: I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog? What do you think?

I'm not Nogrod, but I can say this: last time the game lasted for two weeks, but there were rather many people alive when it ended. But I don't think it should last more than three weeks (?) and one must be lucky to survive to the end...

And speaking of the last game, here's the link if someone is interested to have a look.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one.

And Kath said it is weird I'm her mum... But yes, Greenie dear, that'd be great if you ask me.

And lastly, I didn't understand Nogrod's wolf-kill possibilities either. I think my suggestion would make more sense. I'm sure you'll be able to make it fit the story in some way...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

So if a wizard is voted out, it means that s/he is revealed because s/he isn't lynched regardless of the amount of votes s/he receives?

Yes indeed.

Originally Posted by Legate

I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog?

The last game took exactly two weeks. So if we start at the last days of May / first days of June you should have no problem Legate.

Originally Posted by Kath

Um, Nog, aren't your two possibilities the same? Or are you saying that either a) two kills if there are three wolves, or b) two kills if there are more than three wolves?

That's the difference I'm after and what I meant... Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough on that. So should the wolves have two kills from the beginning (the rule being "if there are three wolves then two kills") or whether there would need to be more than three to give the wolves the second kill?

Originally Posted by Lalaith

think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)

Yes. "Regifting" will be on in this game for the GW. But the question remains whether there shoould be limits to scrying in the first place...

[Brinniel]

Dearest Kath,
Will you be my life partner?

And would anyone like a twin sister? I've always wanted a twin...

About deadlines: I vote for the latest possible (11pm).

Anyways, I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions...but my brain needs a little while to absorb the rules first...

EDIT: Oh and Greenie, I'll be your apprentice.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The last game took exactly two weeks. So if we start at the last days of May / first days of June you should have no problem Legate.

If by "no problem" you mean at least two big exams during that time, then yes However a game like this is something that doesn't happen everyday, that much is clear. *sigh* I don't know. I must think of pros and cons, and if it's possible at all...

[Cailín]

Diamond! I am so pleased you're joining.

I have been looking at the old thread again - a good read. I can recommend it to all. It made me quite nostalgic, especially when I realised Nogrod was still a WW newbie back then (but a strong player, no doubt). Ah, times change.

I am still interested in adopting a child. I'm afraid your father would be away overseas to conquer distant lands, but there'd still be cookies.

[Nogrod]

Should I count you in Legate?

About the number of kills of the wolves. What is it you don't see - or what is it I say in such a muddled way that no one understands?

The question is whether three wolves can make two kills or do we need a fourth for them to make two kills. That has a big implication as if no wolf is killed on Day1 the wolves can start with two kills in the beginning of the game (Night2) and if no wolf is gotten the next Day they will have at least two Nights more of two kills per Night - if three wolves are enough for two kills per Night.

If we say three wolves are not enough for there being two nightly kills the wolves / EW actually need to play well to earn the second kill. On the other occasion they will get two kills for granted form the beginning unless they lose one of them on Day1.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Cailín

It made me quite nostalgic, especially when I realised Nogrod was still a WW newbie back then (but a strong player, no doubt). Ah, times change.

They do indeed! I'm not sure if I'd need to be ashamed of that game myself or not... Probably I should.

I try to hang on with these relationships... Hopefully I can produce you a map / tree of them after all is settled. Or would Hookbill wish to produce one this time as well?

[satansaloser2005]

Whoa buddy. I'm confused. I need to look back at everything with more than just a scanning eye.

Oh, and Noggie, I'm still in with a question mark dearie. Need to finalize my summer work schedule before I can give you an absolute "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

[Nogrod]

About the dealine...

The "latest possible" have been voiced a few times - being 11PM GMT. That is 2AM my time but as I am on vacation by then (from May 31st) I can make it that. We're kind of late nigth stalkers here anyway...

[Kath]

Dearest Kath,
Will you be my life partner?

Hah! Go on then Brinn. This family is growing well!

[Lalaith]

I think that in the last game the GW's picks were only limited so that he could have only one seer, one ranger and one hunter at a time. I think it's a better way of limiting the gifteds than banning renamings in case the original gifted dies or becomes ungifted

Yes, I think you're right. I can't remember now, but I'll go back and check.
All I really remember from last time was being in the car on the way down to France, trying to log on to the site from my phone, trying to save myself on that last day. Unsuccessfully.
"Bowl of petunias". Diamond will know what I mean.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Di

I might have to live out in the shed in secret though if your adoptive parents only wanted one child. You know, a son to do the chores.

Only wanted one child? You should know us better.

All adoptive children are gladly accepted. Where there's room for one, there's room for... umm... more than one. Don't worry about sleeping in the shed - now that we have a son to do the chores, we can have a daughter to treat as Little Miss Princess.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

There will be a special arrangement on Night1 though when both wizards will produce a list of six to the mod(s) from which the minions will be dealt to them randomly (looking that neither wizard gets to know the identity of the other one) and from which the GW can then deal the gifts according to her will.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but if both wizards get three minions on Night1, then, with a list size of 6, there could be a choice dilemma in the unlikely case that both wizards give five identical names plus the respective enemy wizard. Make it 7.

Originally Posted by Lommy

In the previous game, there was a limit that the GW could only name one seer, one ranger and one hunter. Will there be such a limit again? I know you haven't decided how many gifteds there can be in total, but will there be some sort of ratios, like one third of them should be of each kind or will you let the GW decide what kind of giteds she wants? Or will you let her decide freely, but set some limits, like "there must be one gifted of each kind all the time, the rest can be whatever" or "there can only be two seers at most at a time"?

I prefer to have no more than the regular trio would - plus regifting, of course.

A random suggestion about what to do when the Good Wizard would be able to create additional gifteds: what about not turning that additional person into a permanent gifted, but just give the Wizard the possibility to communicate with that individual for that one night? This won't make the gifteds too strong, but will still provide them with an advantage.

Originally Posted by Grandma Green

I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one.

Great!

[satansaloser2005]

Hmmmm....so I have a mum, a dad, a lovely sister, now all I need is a romantic interest.

Legate, if you decide to join, would you like to be my boyfriend? I'm not sure I'm ready to be married/engaged yet, so I'll do that if it's all right with you. Besides, that way if I sadly have to pull out I won't be jilting any other young gentleman who has signed up for certain. Is this an acceptable....proposal?

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

And would anyone like a twin sister? I've always wanted a twin...

Brinn, if you'll take me I've always wanted a twin too.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Only wanted one child? You should know us better.

All adoptive children are gladly accepted. Where there's room for one, there's room for... umm... more than one. Don't worry about sleeping in the shed - now that we have a son to do the chores, we can have a daughter to treat as Little Miss Princess.

Ah, the family dynamic is already forming.

[McCaber]

I guess I can join this family system. Anyone want the McCobbler on their hands?

Originally Posted by Cailin

I am still interested in adopting a child. I'm afraid your father would be away overseas to conquer distant lands, but there'd still be cookies.

This actually sounds like a tempting offer, if only because of the promise of cookies.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by McCaber

I guess I can join this family system. Anyone want the McCobbler on their hands?

Dude, McCaber...let's be bros.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Dude, McCaber...let's be bros.

Sounds awesome to me. Should we get parents?

[Gwathagor]

Parents are square. Parents are for losers. They don't understand the young people.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

A random suggestion about what to do when the Good Wizard would be able to create additional gifteds: what about not turning that additional person into a permanent gifted, but just give the Wizard the possibility to communicate with that individual for that one night? This won't make the gifteds too strong, but will still provide them with an advantage.

I'm afraid I don't understand... Do you mean that the GW could communicate with ordos during the Night? I can't see the advantage in that...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

About the number of kills of the wolves. What is it you don't see - or what is it I say in such a muddled way that no one understands?

The question is whether three wolves can make two kills or do we need a fourth for them to make two kills. That has a big implication as if no wolf is killed on Day1 the wolves can start with two kills in the beginning of the game (Night2) and if no wolf is gotten the next Day they will have at least two Nights more of two kills per Night - if three wolves are enough for two kills per Night.

If we say three wolves are not enough for there being two nightly kills the wolves / EW actually need to play well to earn the second kill. On the other occasion they will get two kills for granted form the beginning unless they lose one of them on Day1.

I think you're making this unnecessarily complicated. Why not give the wolves two kills from the beginning and then change it to one kill when the village is small enough? And the number of wolves would affect nothing at all. I think it would be simpler and far less confusing. Are there faults in this system? (Except the one you mentioned, that it doesn't sound good narration-wise, but I'm inclined to think you'll be able to solve that. I mean, it doesn't make sense narration-wise that in the regular games the wolves only kill one person per Night in the first place, if you ask me...)

What about retractable votes and double-lynches? I'm against the latter, but could be persuaded to support the first, even though I'm inclined to be against it.

And Nogrod, you forgot to add that Brinn is Greenie's apprentice.

[Lhunardawen]

After watching the Phantom of the Opera film last night, I have this strong urge to propose to our very own phantom...

But it is equally tempting to take Cailin as my adoptive mother (though it would be rather odd to have the absentee Eomer as my dad! ). Could both of these work somehow?

[Aganzir]

Now only Nerwen will have to change her avvie to a Disney one to keep the family together...

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Oh and if The Ka is still playing I'd love her to join my family in honour of our mutual love of a certain band...

And I'd love her to be my sister (or some other relative), if she just wants to.

Cabbie and Gwath, would either of you like dating me?

Legate, do you want to be my ex?

[Nogrod]

Why not Lhuna?

Let's make you the daughter of Cailín and Eomer - and by their leave I could kill Eomer with myself on the first Night!

And if tp is willing you could be a couple at the same time. I see no problem there.

Now let me see who I could be in all this? Maybe I could be Greenie's husband the weird old gaffer?

Although now it seems that Greenie's offspring and their families make more than half of the village this far. So I'd suggest the others (Nerwen/Lalaith/Aganzir/Volo - Kitanna/Brinn - Gwath/McCaber) to somehow connect to each other. I could be the father of some of you and if the next players to come in would cling into that family (being my bro or wife fex.) we could build another big family tying the rest together.

About the ages then...

Now there clearly is one gammer: Greenie

The adults (those who are parents or their siblings) are: Cailín, Nilp, Lommy, Mac, Rikae + Nerwen & Lalaith

The young people seem to be: Sally, Kath, the phantom, Diamond, Aganzir, Brinn, Kitanna (Brinn and Kit because Brinn and Kath are "life partners" and Kath is Nilp's and Lommy's daughter) and if Cailín will take Lhuna as her daughter she will be a young one as well.

How about you Gwath & McCaber? We seem to have quite a number of enchanting young ladies out there walking free... So why don't you at least show a romantic interest?

[Aganzir]

Hey I want to be young too!

Actually it's rather all the same, and if there aren't enough little kiddies I can be one as well. I just thought it would be amusing to be the loose teenage daughter of the family black sheep.

What about you Nog being Lalaith and Nerwen's father?

edit: was my name in the list all along and I just missed it? Oh well, never mind.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Cabbie and Gwath, would either of you like dating me?

Legate, do you want to be my ex?

She gets around, she does...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Why not Lhuna?

I thought there might be something unethical there, but I was wrong apparently. Let's hope the phantom agrees. *crosses fingers*

Let's make you the daughter of Cailín and Eomer - and by their leave I could kill Eomer with myself on the first Night!

No, don't kill my daddy! Just send him somewhere far away, but please please pretty please keep him alive! Or my mum will be sooo devastated.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

edit: was my name in the list all along and I just missed it? Oh well, never mind.

No it wasn't but I saw my mistake just after posting it and added you there.

And with young I mean here teenagers or something - well old enough to have boy/girlfriends. Though anyone so wishing can be younger as well - like Lommy was in the last one ("little girl who steals other children's candy").

Also I'd like to see some professions as those add to your character's and give inspiration to the narrations. I'm not going to be picky about them but I'll just remind you that this village and the story go far back in time into the first human villages there ever were in the ME. So the technology will be rude even if I think they should know agriculture - and all that comes with it; baking, brewing, handcrafts, smiths, tailors - as they live in a village surrounded by a palisade wall. But it would be nice to have fishermen or hunters as well...

All this doesn't mean you have to be dead serious though...