Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Eönwë]

Haha! I've figured it out. It's Ulmo who sent the dream.

My reason for saying this: Who did Ulmo give successful advice to? Tuor. Who were Tuor's descendants? The Numenoreans. Of who does it say "the blood of Numenor ran" truer? Faramir. But Boromir still had some Nmenorean blood, so he still got the dream.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Some years ago, on a different board, I recall a long and heated debate about this very subject in which someone very stridently insisted that the dream HAD to come from Ulmo, because only Ulmo still cared enough about ME to remain involved in its affairs. This argument was supported by the person's contention that all prophetic dreams during LotR supposedly took place near water, so naturally, Ulmo would be the person who sent them. Some people accepted this as proof, others didn't. I didn't. Not that I don't believe that Ulmo COULD have sent it, but because I don't believe the other Valar were as totally uninvolved with ME as it would appear on a casual glance. In his battle with Shelob, Sam calls the name of Elbereth, is suddenly moved to call out to her for help in a language he doesn't even know, and in response, the light of the Phial blazes "like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light," blinding Shelob so that recoils and finally retreats, giving Sam a last shot at her legs. And then there are the Eagles, which conveniently appear to show up when Gandalf, a servant of Manwe, needs them most. I suspect the Valar haven't totally withdrawn their interest, or their help; they only do so in moments of utmost need, and then as subtly as possible.

Personally, I have long thought that it's possible the dream came from Gandalf -- who was the Counsellor of Irmo, the Master of Dreams. He knew about the Sword That Was Broken, and where it dwelt, the fact that Elrond was a master of Lore, in whose house crucial matters were often taken in council (as with the White Council); he already knew about Isildur's Bane, as well as the importance of the Halfling; moreover, he had already performed the test on the Ring and told Frodo to head for Rivendell before Faramir and Boromir had the dream, which first came on the night before Sauron attacked Osgiliath on June 20th (according to Boromir's report to the Council). If Gandalf -- who, as the Maia Olorin, was responsible for giving helpful, if anonymous, visions to the Eldar of earlier ages -- was not the one who sent the dream, it might well have been Irmo, from whom he probably learned much about such matters. I certainly don't believe either of them were responsible for all such things in LotR (Frodo's dream of Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc certainly didn't come from him, nor, I think, from Irmo), but the dream sent to Faramir and Boromir was so specific in what it revealed and so direct in to whom it went, I believe it was intended to help prompt the Gondorians to stop looking at the welfare and defense of Gondor alone, and start realizing that there was still a larger world outside her borders, in which important things were happening and of which they should be a part. No man is an island, as the saying goes, and Gondor under Denethor's rule was coming perilously close to becoming one, consoled by the thought (which Denethor promulgated) that if Gondor fell, so would the rest of ME. The dream, if one wants to think of it in political terms, was rather anti-isolationist, and attempting to unify the free peoples in the fight against Sauron was larger mission of the Istari.

Oh, my, that was quite a ramble. Blame it on new meds that make me so sleepy....

[Galadriel55]

I think that Galadriel sent the dream, because she can see the future, and she is able to talk through telepathy (talking with thoughts).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

For me, it is completely out of question that it would be any of the "interested characters" sending the dream. By "interested characters", I mean basically anybody in Middle-Earth, and even less those who are part of the story, which effectively dismisses all Gandalfs or Galadriels...

Firstly, it would really make no sense that nobody ever mentions it. I mean, Gandalf or Galadriel would surely say, certainly at some point, "Yes, it was me who actually sent the dream", or it would be written in some of Tolkien's notes (I can imagine all these stories in UT with the behind-the-scenes stuff telling something about this). Gandalf himself was sitting at the Council when the question about the dream was brought forth. And (and that is the second point), wouldn't it be totally silly if Gandalf at that point had to say "um, yes, I actually know that dream, I have sent it myself?" Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor. Gandalf would be more logical, as Faramir was his friend, but again, why then did also Boromir get the dream once? Perhaps only if Gandalf once "called the wrong number". In any case, once again, there is no indication that Gandalf knew anything about the subject before Boromir brought it up.

I think it could not have been anybody in Middle-Earth, because first you need to have a person who knows a) Faramir, b) Boromir, c) Isildur's Bane, d) Halflings, e) Sword that was broken, f) where it is. There really are not too many people like this. And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

No, in my opinion, it has to come from "outside the Middle-Earth": and at this point, it ceases to interest me, actually. "Something else at work" is always and has always been the best description for me. If somebody really pushed me, I would say either "the Valar" (as a whole), or "Eru" (which is sort of logical, but somehow I wonder if it is not unnecessarily high). The idea about Ulmo mentioned above is not relevant in my opinion, not anymore in Third Age; Ulmo was the last of the Valar to communicate with the exiles in First Age, but since then, many many things have changed and Valinor is outside the Circles of the World for good, and already by the end of FA Ulmo's power in the waters of Middle-Earth was waning. This was certainly a thing of importance, one of the few instances where there was "something else at work" in the fate of Middle-Earth, something from the outside, and in that case I believe it would have to be either just Eru himself or all of the Valar acting here together - just like with sending the Istari. So that is my opinion.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

Note that everyone in the story just seems to assume the dream has been sent by a higher power of some kind– i.e. not any of the actual characters. It's surely on that basis that Boromir undertakes his journey. So if it were in reality, say, Gandalf, he'd have been in effect impersonating a Vala/the Valar/Eru. Which I don't think was in his job description.

[skip spence]

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave...

It seems obvious that the recurring dream of this nature, obviously prophetic, seemed to be really important to the descendants of Númenoreans still, and especially in this time of crisis. If it was only a matter of asking about some totally random and unimportant thing, they could have sent some random bunch of soldiers and messengers, and not one of the Steward's sons...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

My money would be on Eru, as the ultimate "driver" of the story, and also, as others have said, the "fate" personified that brought the members of the Council of Elrond together at that particular moment in time.

Originally Posted by skip spence

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

From Boromir and Faramir's words, it looks to me as if Faramir was the one who wanted to go, and Boromir did it himself as a "big brother" gesture.

Boromir:

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.

The Council of Elrond

Faramir:

Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.

The Window On the West

x/d with Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just as a remark to the idea of Gandalf being the sender, let me requote something I have said earlier here:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(...) Gandalf or Galadriel would surely say, certainly at some point, "Yes, it was me who actually sent the dream", or it would be written in some of Tolkien's notes (I can imagine all these stories in UT with the behind-the-scenes stuff telling something about this). Gandalf himself was sitting at the Council when the question about the dream was brought forth. And (and that is the second point), wouldn't it be totally silly if Gandalf at that point had to say "um, yes, I actually know that dream, I have sent it myself?" Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor. Gandalf would be more logical, as Faramir was his friend, but again, why then did also Boromir get the dream once? Perhaps only if Gandalf once "called the wrong number". In any case, once again, there is no indication that Gandalf knew anything about the subject before Boromir brought it up.

(emphasised relevant parts)

Also, I believe that the talk about Olórin's "power" refers to him talking to the people and "inspiring" them, not sending them dreams (although of course such a "power" could have had different manifestations inside M-E, but still, we see Gandalf "boosting the morale" of people, talking Hobbits into going for adventures, stuff like that, but he does that by subtleties in his talking, not by sending visions).

[FlimFlamSam]

Galadriel55 spoke: They were all gathered by some force (call it "fate" if you prefer) to decide on the Ring and form a Fellowship.

For fun, count the number of times "fate", "destiny", "chance" and other such synonyms appear in Lord of the Rings.

Inziladun was, I believe, more on the nose than many gave credit for when he mentioned the connection with Bombadil.

Bombadil and Goldberry (the River-woman and others) are physical manifestations of Gaia (the Greek Titan mother of all--or if you prefer, THE ONE).
It is probably no coincidence that Maia is related to Gaia linguistically, even though the term does not appear in Lord of the Rings. The term "The Powers" does.
Note also Gandalf's parting words to Frodo and company before he visits Bombadil.

The inclusion of Eru as an outside all-knowing God is a corruption to the mythologies of the region from which these elements are derived--namely pict/wode, norse, celtic, anglo-saxon and others.
It is an admitted authorial forced inclusion of a christian/catholic layer, which includes angels, devils and saints--Earendil as a chief example of Sainthood.
It does not belong. One of my problems with... other texts, and those that came after.

I would use an analogy here that may help.
The Silmarillion and other unfinished tales/brief essays and written letters to fans and other people is like Cooking oil.
The Lord of the Rings is like Motor oil.
The Hobbit is like Baby oil.
Just because they all contain the word "oil" does not mean that they belong together. Putting motor oil into your cooking oil gets you things like Myths Transformed and others of that ilk. Putting motor oil into your baby oil gets you things like the aborted 1960 rewrite attempt of The Hobbit.
Galadriel55 mentioned the severe recasting of The Quest of Erebor--this is more a result of putting both cooking and motor oil in the baby oil.

That said...
Returning to what the Lord of the Rings itself presents:
The earth itself speaks quite often in Lord of the Rings. The ents and other living things draw their power (for even MORE fun, check the number of times the word "power" comes up in relation to inhabitants and locales) from the earth--like Old-man Willow for example. The earth is an active participant in events, and is seemingly the source guiding them though visions and dreams as the hand of fate, as all living things are part of the earth and connected to it.
Dust to dust as they say.

Note the Arthurian connection between Gandalf/Aragorn and Merlin/Arthur.
You can go even further with the Lady of the Lake (another manifestation of Gaia) and Excalibur. The mysterious appearance of the seedling of the white tree found on Mindolluin presages any of the incidents leading up to the war of the ring. Checking the Tale of Years shows no event that would account for the emergence of the seedling, not even the presence of Gandalf, yet Gandalf knows it will be present and why he takes Aragorn to that spot.
Attribute it to Eru if you like, but once you look at the whole picture that explanation falls flat on its face.

The symbols of the reigns of both Arthur and Aragorn are derived from the earth.
Excalibur is drawn from the earth (the stone) and returned to the earth (via the Lady of the Lake) at the end of Arthur's reign. Aragorn obtains the seedling at the beginning of his reign (Narsil as well if you care to continue the Excalibur connection).
They are gifts, from the earth.

As an amusing aside; Gandalf is twice obliquely compared to Merlin in Lord of the Rings as aging backwards. Once in Shadow of the Past and once in Voice of Saruman.
In Shadow, he recalls his appearance 90 years previous where his hair was whiter, his beard and eyebrows longer, and his face more lined with care and wisdom. Curious statement, no?

In Voice, Treebeard has a joke with Gandalf concerning haste and how he feels he is growing backwards towards youth. While this statement seems innocuous, notice that "hasty" is exactly what Gandalf is after his "renewal".
In fact, just about every second sentence out of his mouth concerns haste and his need of it, and he constantly berates others for their lack of it.
How does he "heal" Theoden? He basically tells the old fart to get up off his arse, go outside and DO SOMETHING. Be hasty. Renew. Theoden Ednew.

Old Gandalf--pretty much just farts around, mostly.
Oh he does stuff, but not in haste.

While the Arthurian connection is not terribly important to the overall discussion, the fact that "renewal" is a product of change, not idleness. Mother Nature (or Gaia) is not idle. Howerver it does also serve to illustrate the connections to the regional mythologies drawn upon, and is not christian/catholic in origin.

Another connection to the Gaia earth theme is the five wizards themselves.
They are elemental. Earth (Radagast), Fire (Gandalf), Air and Water (the Blue wizards) with Saruman representing the fifth element--Man, and Man's tendancy to be either corrupted or exalted.
Exalted, the head of the order commanding all the other elements.
Corrupted, cast out.

The earth themes flowing though the book are strong once you recognize them for what they are. Just look at the level of detail regarding descriptive nature elements in the book if you doubt nature is a heavy authorial theme.

Remember, oils do not all mix.
Doing so leads to alchemical frustrations as the author (and myself) belatedly discovered.
Keep the ingredients pure.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Remember, oils do not all mix.
Doing so leads to alchemical frustrations as the author (and myself) belatedly discovered.
Keep the ingredients pure.

Your oils metaphor is interesting, but I am pleased Tolkien dabbled in different genera. I see the Silmarillion and similar works to be pastiche, “an artistic work in a style that imitates that of another work, artist, or period.” These older works were often in the style of the old epics, while The Hobbit and LotRs were more modern novels. Silmarillion was close to a pagan theme, while The Hobbit had a strong tine of children’s work, while LotR leaned towards the Christian world view.

Tolkien grew as an author and a scholar. He did not retain the same perspective and values in his art over his entire life. As he grew, his highest priority was not to go back and rewrite his older stuff so that all his works are nitpick consistent. His newer works borrowed depth and flavor from the older, but fans expecting all the works to be entirely in agreement with one another are… Hmm. In the interests of keeping things friendly, I guess I’ll not say explicitly what they are.

If you are encountering ‘alchemical frustrations,’ I suspect the problem is with you rather than Tolkien. You are demanding of The Master more than he was interested in giving.

As for your elemental interpretation, it seems sort of plausible, but hardly the only possible view. I would, for example, associate Radagast with Beasts rather than Earth. I would call Saruman an Artificer, rather than associating him with Man. (And, yes, I am using Ambar Quenta’s perspective on Middle Earth again, but I reject an argument that AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing. Radagast is a specialist in beasts, while Saruman works with machines and artifacts. In this case, AQ’s system of realms is just more comprehensive and true to Tolkien than an elemental approach.)

Is there any source for a claim that the blue wizards are associated with air and water?

I also just have a gut feeling that Middle Earth and the Arthur mythos are sort of like two different types of oil.

[Rumil]

Interesting points FlimFlamSam, though I'd disagree about Gandalf aging backwards.

In the Shadow of the Past, Frodo notes that Gandalf appears older and more careworn. Then Gandalf thinks back to Bilbo's day with

His hair was perhaps whiter than it had been then

etc, showing that G was aging forwards if, admittedly, very slowly!

Though agree that after his renewal there was considerably more spring in the step of Gandalf the White.

Meanwhile on the dream, why was it sent to Boromir at all if Faramir was supposed to go, on the other hand why bother with Faramir if Boromir was supposed to go all along?

(I'd subscribe to the Eru/Valar/outside fatey sort of thing interpretation by the way.)

Was the dream sent to Boromir to increase Denethor's belief in it? Otherwise it could just be interpreted by Denethor as that ditzy wizard's pupil younger son off chasing fairy tales again.

Was Boromir lying when he claimed to have had the same dream. Unlikely I think, but perhaps worth considering. Motivation - I'm the elder, so all the important stuff should be done myself. Or - I don't think Faramir's up to the job, it'd be better for me to do it. Or - Dad wants me to go instead so I'll play along.

What was the job? If you put yourself in Denethor's position, then the mention of the Sword that was Broken and Rivendell, on the border of Arnor, should make you put two-and-two together and come up with an heir, real or pretended. If you're Denethor, should you send the 'weaker' son who might end up with the wool pulled over his eyes and support the 'heir', or should you send the stronger son, who's more likely to have the interests of Gondor, ie the Stewards, at heart? Bear in mind the risks of them being lost en route, or even suffering some 'accident' at the hands of this unknown 'heir'.