What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

Now, that said, I sometimes wonder if she isn't also a bit of a holdover from other ideas Tolkien had once entertained, then discarded. From what we see of some of his earlier versions of The Silmarillion in the HoME books, the Valar/Ainur we see in what we think of as TS aren't the same as what Tolkien had once conceived. At some point, they were more "classic mythology" rather than "angelic" in nature. Even after Tolkien started referring to the Powers as the Valar rather than "the gods," he conceived of the Maiar as the Valarindi, the Children of the Valar; early versions of Eonwe and Ilmare (called, I believe Fionwe and Erinti) were the offspring of Manwe and Varda. I'm not saying that Goldberry (and possibly Tom) was ever another child of the Valar in Tolkien's mind, since no evidence of this exists, but in pure speculation, a character who appears to be more than human, referred to as the "River-daughter" could have (at some time in the evolution of Tolkien's created world) been indeed the daughter of a greater power, like Ulmo, or perhaps even Uinen (after all, if the Valar could reproduce, why would their children not also have this capacity?). Given the scope of what Tolkien was creating, I can well imagine that there were many, many more possibilities he devised, then discarded; and I think that it's possible that some aspects of these myriad variations might have crept into the final work -- some intentionally, others not so, just bits of that bigger tapestry he liked for some reason and didn't want to wholly abandon (rather like Tom himself, I suspect).

Just muddying the waters (so to speak)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

There are several views in which we can look at the topic. We can look at what Goldberry was supposed to represent in Tolkien's universe, even at different stages (as Ibri mentioned), whether she is anachronic in LotR or not, whether she is even consistent with the world etc.
What I am asking, is what would we say from the "in-world" point of view, i.e. if you were omniscient inhabitant of M-E who makes classifications of all people and creatures of Arda, what would you say about Goldberry? You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Okay, I'll play this game.

If I were omniscient, then Balrogs did have wings, Orcs were derived from Men and not Elves, Hobbits have lunch (right after elevensies), and Tom and Goldberry were spirits of the Old Oxfordshire countryside (hence no ill effects from being in proximity or having direct contact with the One Ring, because they had no contextual connection with Middle-earth). But there is an excellent essay on Bombadil and Goldberry wherein the author, Gene Hargrove, puts forth the proposition that Goldberry is indeed Yavanna and Tom is Aule. It can be found here...

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

I don't necessarily agree with his assumptions, but the essay is well-researched and thought provoking.

Originally Posted by davem

Or even a corruption of 'gold-bearer' which would be a nice kenning for a forest-river with fallen autumn leaves being carried upon its surface.

A very mellifluous description, davem, and quite an appropriate allusion for the Withywindle.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Morthoron, don't be silly! I am not saying that you have to try to present it from the in-ME point of view. If you want to look at it in one of the other views, why not? I was merely explaining from which view I am trying to look at it, and therefore, what my posts refer to.

This far, it seems the most probable to me what I said above: That she is of the creation (river-daughter) - i.e. she is "daughter" of something which is already by itself a creation - unlike Tom, who is "Oldest" and "Fatherless" (! compare). Now, Ainur don't have any offspring in the published version of the mythology - or do they? (Melian...) Is is possible that Goldberry is a Melian-like character herself (joining old Tom instead of Thingol), or that she is already a descendant of such character? Quite possible. Or, is she really something that "came out of the river" by itself? (And is such a thing likely in Tolkien's world?)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tom is Aule.

IF he was a Vala, I would say he was much more like Orome

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for all the responses! Sorry I haven't the time to comment on them in detail, but I am enjoying your thoughts.

Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I were going to look at this from "inside" the story -- say, as an Elf contemplating the mysteries of the world -- I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol. How Goldberry and Tom eventually met, and why she would choose to stay with him, I would wonder, since he seems rather a peculiar individual, but since he is "oldest and fatherless," I would suspect Tom is some kind of Ainu, a creation of Eru alone, not conceived in the manner of normal incarnate creatures. "Oldest" I would also wonder about, and probably conclude that it meant "oldest being living in this particular place," since "oldest" is a claim also made by the Ents, and, for that matter, Melkor. A matter of perspective and interpretation. If Tom is an Ainu (probably a Maia, I should think), then it would seem perfectly natural to me for him to take as his lady the daughter of another Maia, who no doubt sees him as he is, in truth, and understands him -- idiosyncrasies and all -- much better than I.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol.

This does not sound bad as a variant, except for one point with which I must cathegorically disagree, and that's Uinen being unfaithful to her spouse. The main point is that I'd never have expected, or imagined, anything like that in Tolkien's works - as far as I know, there are no such cases mentioned anywhere in the books. Strangely, we have death, fading of the love or even turning it to hatred; we have also incest, but in neither case infidelity. Maybe with the exception of Aldarion (just metaphorically, though). Anyway, what I said - I find that unlikely and actually the more when thinking about Uinen, who, as far as we know her, is loving her husband to the point that she is able to live with him (this, for me, speaks for her being faithful to Ossë - if she had enough of his angriness, then she would have simply left him to storm as he wishes), she even calms him down when he almost destroys the land and under other occassions. This implies that she cares about him really deeply. So, if Goldberry were the daughter of Uinen, I would say she has to be also Ossë's daughter. However...

...what about this. I would say, if Goldberry were to be descended from Uinen, I would make her the granddaughter of Uinen, and not daughter; this way, the former problem would be solved and also the link to Ossë (whose furious nature does not go somehow with Goldberry) would be somewhat weakened. Also, the real daughter of Uinen could be some spirit more specifically linked to the rivers or river (one) or the rivers in NW Middle-Earth or something like that - and now even the words about "River-woman" would fit.

However, the ultimate question in the background is, are Ainur capable of having children with other Ainu? We know they do when it comes to mortals (Thingol), but with other Ainur, I wouldn't be so sure. At least in the published works there is nothing that would imply so. Then again, the question would be, if the offspring would have to be indeed "physical", as it was in Thingol and Melian's case, or some, like, "spiritual" offspring - note that in any case, the "child" won't be a "classic Ainu", as the Ainur were something created by Ilúvatar, where this one would be begotten - Lo! Indeed, a River-daughter.

So that would be my proposal when we come to the Ainur-origin option.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.

Actually, I wasn't mixing anything Estelyn, merely following other poster's conjectures. I subscribe to the 'outside' the story theory regarding Goldberry and Tom based strictly on Tolkien's letters and the manner in which the two interact with nature, but do not interact with the world outside their self-imposed boundaries. They are an allegory bound within a microcosm.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One doesn't have to agree with Hardgroves, in the link kindly provided by davem, in order to find his concept of how Tolkien tinkered with anomalies and errors very attractive.

The link was kindly provided by the Dark Elf, but I shan't hold it against you. *winks*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thank you for explaining your point of view more precisely, Morthoron - that helps clarify it for me.

Legate, Bb, Ibri, I was thinking along similar lines, and it's interesting to discuss various possibilities!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The link was kindly provided by the Dark Elf, but I shan't hold it against you. *winks*

*The daughter of the daughter of the River-Woman bows to acknowledge the courtesy of the Dark Elf, as links, chains and other accoutrements of bondage, when held against her for study of effect, so do not become her*

There's one aspect of the Tom and Goldberry as nature spirits theory that I don't think has been addressed. When the Valar departed Middle-earth, they left it in Melkor's control. Sometimes Yavanna and others attempted to mend the effects of this evil presence, but their efforts were sporadic and did not extend over all of Arda. So, if Arda is marred, if Middle-earth is tainted by the evil and chaos of Melkor, does that not mean that all of the natural world is fallen? Nature cannot therefore be either neutral or positive, but must be something to be fought against, for fear of succumbing to Melkor's taint. And even with the defeat of Melkor, was this pollution repaired? I don't think so but perhaps there is some archane comment in one of the secondary sources that addresses this point.

So, if Goldberry (and Tom) are spirits of the natural world, are they part of this marring? The violence in ATB suggests as much, while the domestic peace of LotR would suggest something else.