A Query...

[radagastly]

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

Of course, I'm only guessing. I cannot cite a single quote to back up any of these theories. It all seems pretty logical to me, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Well I must oppose here. The Hobbits also lived quite a long time not that far from the Sea, yet they never dared to go there. I can't possibly imagine a Dwarf stepping on a boat unless he were Gimli forced by his duties, or by Aragorn, or seeing some nice heads to chop aboard (but hoping to get off as soon as possible). And the idea of Círdan trading ship with them seems odd at least. No, I am sure the Dwarves had their part in it if it came to trade, and it may well be that they supplied coffee to the Shire, but through some nice, old-fashioned ways on the land. A Dwarf could take a pony caravan and supply coffee from the East, or from some Dunland to where the coffee came from elsewhere in the South. I am sure the sea-ways were not safer than the overland route, and especially not for Dwarves, who never were mariners.

Asides from that, I think Tolkien's proverbial anachronisms are to blame, but I am not willing to talk about that here: the coffee was in the Shire and now how to explain it. In the way the coffee is handled in the Shire, I would actually presume that coffee actually was cultivated somewhere in, or at least near the Shire. Had it come all the way from let's say Far Harad, it would have been quite a rare thing. Yet Bilbo does not worry about serving it to a band of Dwarves he hardly even knows. Of course he was a rich hobbit, but no one tells us that the guests were super-excited when they saw such a rare thing as coffee being served.

And speaking of it, what about tea? That was even more common, everywhere; and it surely can't grow everywhere as well.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

This sounds very plausible, though.

[Thinlómien]

Now, I find this topic very interesting, possibly because I've lately been planning some things for an RPG and have realised I should probably know about these things...

I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time.

As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What if it is this simple: in Tolkien's Middle-Earth coffee grew in colder climate than in our world? Wouldn't be the only difference between the two worlds.

I mean, if a book has elves, hobbits, dwarves and orcs etc prancing around (not to mention balrogs and such) is it really any wonder that in such a world coffee may grow in a different climate than in our world?

and I still think that reasonable enough an explanation. Of course it can be argued...

[The Sixth Wizard]

What else ... would keep [Dol Amroth] at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

If there's one thing I know about trade, its that if you can take the cargo by sea, you'll never go overland. Why go to Dol Amroth and unload all the heavy stuff, then cart it miles and miles to Minas Tirith, all the way trying not to get arrested or killed because you are an outlander trader? It would be much easier just to sail merrily up the Anduin, no? Even if what you were doing was illegal, you could smuggle things on ships with ease compared to over land. Dol Amroth would have its fair share of exotic trade, but certainly not as much as Pelargir or Minas Tirith.

The "dignity and respect" comes from the elven character of the city and the high ranking knights there.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time.

As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was and I still think that reasonable enough an explanation. Of course it can be argued...

Now there was a thread, Lommy! And speaking of threads, we can ask if exotic spices, coffees, gems were the only objects of trade. In what did hobbits drape themselves?

Was it linen, woven from the flax plants that every good hobbit family grew in its garden? Clothes couldn't rightly be made from cotton, as cotton seems to raise the same difficulty as coffee climate-wise.

Could silk be harvested from local silk worms, or would it be imported? Was sheep farming a regular occupation amongst hobbits? Pity the poor hobbit who was allergic to wool.

Of what material did Arwen sew her banner?--Esty, I'm sure you can put your finger on this.

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Now there was a thread, Lommy! And speaking of threads, we can ask if exotic spices, coffees, gems were the only objects of trade. In what did hobbits drape themselves?

Drapery?

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.

Exactly. And surely some of the noble born - or at least their teenaged children - showed off by using/consuming items from banned nations. Not all were 100% loyal to the King/Country.

And what of those that were hybrids - citizens or children of both nations (i.e. parents were from Rohan and Dunland)? Where did their loyalties lay? In starving kin or fat King?

And what of persons like Bill Ferny? He would have traded his mother or a few hobbits for a genuine White Wizard White Hand-emblazened Helm (protection against organic missiles +4).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by He Who Has Fathered His Nest

Exactly. And surely some of the noble born - or at least their teenaged children - showed off by using/consuming items from banned nations. Not all were 100% loyal to the King/Country.

Alatar,as you appear to be our #1 Expert in Children--a title once held by Thenamir (whose brood now have I believe outgrown the roost)--I think you have fingered the less nefarious avenue for illicit trade. A surefire way to get teenagers to do something or want something is to ban it.

Originally Posted by The Big K

Elves seem the most likely to be the great weavers of Middle earth...but I don't think there is ever any mention of where they obtained their materials.

Yet trade can be so, well, like being a green grocer--at least to the English hupper classes. Doesn't strike me as part of elven aesthetics. So who would they get to do the toil? dwarves?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Alatar,as you appear to be our #1 Expert in Children--a title once held by Thenamir (whose brood now have I believe outgrown the roost)--I think you have fingered the less nefarious avenue for illicit trade. A surefire way to get teenagers to do something or want something is to ban it.

It's either that or that I see the worst in people, being cynical and all.

Also, you always () have to assume that nothing's 100% and that there's always those on the fringe that are following a different directive. And what of the Kinstrife? What trade commenced during that time, and what continued afterwards? Isn't blood thicker than water, and money thicker than both?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet trade can be so, well, like being a green grocer--at least to the English hupper classes. Doesn't strike me as part of elven aesthetics. So who would they get to do the toil? dwarves?

I don't know about that. There were the raft-elves in The Hobbit, for example.

As far as trading with the Men of Darkness goes...I think it boils down to why people trade at all. It really almost seems instinctive.