Was Sauron a Balrog?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh no, am I again seeming aggressive and heated when I'm merely bantering?

You? Always.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I can't still see how it is. If we go for other traditional four elements, earth spirits (and probably air spirits too) would not all work for the same Vala, but every one for the Vala who shares the same specific aspect of the element (like plant-inclined earth spirits would got to Yavanna and rock-inclined to Aulë), right? Therefore it would be logical to assume that fire spirits could be divided too.

Well yes, but that's exactly what was my point before. Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits. We know only about two of his Maiar, as far as I am aware, and these were some sort of mad craftsmen (and both turned to the Dark Side, which is another issue ). But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

I am not quite sure what Nerwen intended to say with her last post, though. I cannot follow the breaking point of it. What is right and what is wrong, Nerwen? Or is it supposed to say that all is logical, but it's wrong? That's how I understood it, but the formulation is... confusing at least.

[Nerwen]

Sorry for being confusing. It's late here.

I'm saying all is logical, but it's wrong.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits.

Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.

But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same? And what does any of that have to do with Sauron, who was never a fire spirit? Is Peter Jackson's volcanic eye depiction creeping in?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't know if Arien was a fire-spirit or whose maia she was... At least I think it was said quite clearly that she was a fire-spirit (see the quote Nerwen provided).
But as for her connection with Vána... Did there need to be more reasons than that the flowers in Vána's gardens enjoyed being watered with the dew of Laurelin?

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.

One or two Arien-like naked flames dancing there would surely have been more disturbing to Yavanna than some occasional tree-cutting.

Originally Posted by alatar

Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same?

Were the fire-spirits alike in every way (ie. did Eru "create" them to be some special kind of spirits), or was the only thing they had in common that fire attracted them?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't know if Arien was a fire-spirit or whose maia she was... At least I think it was said quite clearly that she was a fire-spirit (see the quote Nerwen provided).

I am wondering why would a fire spirit (which Arien was, no doubt) belong to Vána, who on first sight did not seem to have anything to do with fire. Now I believe it is clear what I said.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Were the fire-spirits alike in every way (ie. did Eru "create" them to be some special kind of spirits), or was the only thing they had in common that fire attracted them?

I believe the latter. Of course, every Ainu was born only from part of Eru's mind - so these obviously had something to do with the part that knew about fire or similar things. But it was their own choice, the Ainur took on a shape they liked, and simply several of them liked fire and joined the ranks of fire spirits as much as we like Tolkien and joined the Barrow-Downs, although otherwise we may have little or even nothing in common.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am wondering why would a fire spirit (which Arien was, no doubt) belong to Vána, who on first sight did not seem to have anything to do with fire.

I don't think that that passage from Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor means that Arien belonged to Vana - only that she did this and that in the gardens of Vana and I don't think that a maia has to belong to a certain vala/valie in order to perform a certain duty. Furthermore, in Myths Transformed it is said:

Originally Posted by Home X, MT, II

Now the Sun was designed to be the heart of Arda, and the Valar purposed that it should give light to all that Realm, unceasingly and without wearying or diminution, and that from its light the world should receive health and life and growth. Therefore Varda set there the most ardent and beautiful of all those spirits that had entered with her into Ea, and she was named Ar(i), and Varda gave to her keeping a portion of the gift of Iluvatar so that the Sun should endure and be blessed and give blessing.
...
But Arie rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying: 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Ea made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of As a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee

which further underlines the relation between Arien and fire as light, esspecially the Light of Iluvatar, the Imperishable Flame.

[Gwathagor]

My thoughtful contribution to this thread:

Gothmog was Lord of the Balrogs, so if Sauron was a balrog, he would had been subordinate to Gothmog. However, we know that Sauron was NOT subordinate to Gothmog and was Morgoth's lieutenant. Therefore, he could not have been a balrog.


When I saw the thread title, my knee-jerk reaction was just to say "***???" and leave it at that. However, I resisted the temptation to be an irresponsible and flippant thread-basher. Someone had better appreciate the extra effort...

[Bregalad]

Sauron was not a balrog! He is a maia yes, and he served Morgoth.
Remember when Sauron tricked the elven smiths to make the rings: he was disguised as good and took the name as Annatar.
You would think an elf would notice a balrog, da'h :P

Then, I don't know, Tolkiens books, they says different...
There was endless of balrogs. But then it was changed to only five balrogs/dragons? Slained by Tuor, Gandalf and... well, don't remember >_<