Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[Roa_Aoife]

I understand now. I agree that no lynch on a tie isn't very good for the village. It would be too easy for the evil team to manipulate that. I'm intrigued by this Wizard's Battle idea, however, with everything that has to happen at Night, it may be overstretching the capabilities of the mods and wizards alike.

I like the idea that the number of wolves/gifted rely on the number of villagers, but I wouldn't like to limit the kind too much. After all, the GW needs to be able to strategize. If we have wolves= 1/4 village, then the number of gifted should also rely on the size of the village, though maybe not in equal numbers. (As you pointed out, when the gifted are cursed they don't change sides, but when the wolves are scryed, they do.) Perhaps 1/5? So 20 villagers would mean five wolves and four gifted, whereas 30 villagers means seven wolves (or eight depending on if you want to round up or down) and six gifted. This is total of course, and assuming that either team can manage to keep all their members alive (quite a feat, I assure you.) Then for the gifted, as long they stay withing the limits of each type (such as no more than two seers, etc.) they can be arranged however the GW wishes.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nog, to that wizard battle over lynched people - if this rule was used, what will happen if a tie is reached and the Wizards are already dead?

Anyway, I must say I don't particularly like this rule, it seems still too much more of an advantage for the EW. Or: I can't see an advantage for the GW in it. And by the way, why can't we simply have a double-lynch or the lynch when the first person who reaches... etc?

As to the Gifteds/Wolves: was the last game really that badly unbalanced or what? Remember that with the rising number of wolves, the possibility that the GW turns a WW into an innocent rises every night, so that maintains balance, sort of. And with three Gifted...

As to the 36-or more hour days/nights: definitely not. Whatever transmission problems it may take, I'm strongly against changing the times.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As to the Gifteds/Wolves: was the last game really that badly unbalanced or what? Remember that with the rising number of wolves, the possibility that the GW turns a WW into an innocent rises every night, so that maintains balance, sort of. And with three Gifted...

If you read through this entire thread, you'll see that some people believed it unbalanced in favor of the Evil team. I can understand it as well. Personally, I don't have a problem with it staying the way it was before, but we're trying to satisfy all ends here, so bear with us as we work it out.

Perhaps 3 gifted total, but they can all start on night 1?

As to the 36-or more hour days/nights: definitely not. Whatever transmission problems it may take, I'm strongly against changing the times.

I believe the 36 hour day was how we managed last time, and I don't recall a problem occuring.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Legate

Nog, to that wizard battle over lynched people - if this rule was used, what will happen if a tie is reached and the Wizards are already dead?

I vote for normal "first to reach tie is lynched".

This looks like an unnecessary rule at first sight. However my argument for it working is that the more days we are into the game, the better the chances to spot a Wolf. I say that it would be interesting to see this work in practice.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I believe the 36 hour day was how we managed last time, and I don't recall a problem occuring.

Oh, ok. Sounds fine. Or if the game did work well with 24 hour Days/Nights, that's fine too.

Putting a limit to the ammount of Wolves and Gifteds sounds good for the balance, but to me it diminishes both the Wizards quite a lot. What would happen if the when the border is reached? Will the Wizards still be able to curse/scry?

What about the GW giving her targets "protection" from being cursed after the Gifted limit is reached? Being a Gifted is basically having a protecting from becoming a Wolf. So if there would be limit to Gifteds, but the Wizard could still protect?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Volo

Putting a limit to the ammount of Wolves and Gifteds sounds good for the balance, but to me it diminishes both the Wizards quite a lot. What would happen if the when the border is reached? Will the Wizards still be able to curse/scry?

What about the GW giving her targets "protection" from being cursed after the Gifted limit is reached? Being a Gifted is basically having a protecting from becoming a Wolf. So if there would be limit to Gifteds, but the Wizard could still protect?

The GW shouldn't be able to protect more than one a night. Otherwise you take away some of the power that the EW has. Remember, gifteds don't become wolves if cursed. The just lose their giftedness. And for that matter, the EW should also be able to protect at least one wolf from being scryed. Afterall, it's no guarantee that either team will have their roster filled at any time. It's possible that the GW may still need to scry gifted while the wolves have as many as is allowed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wait, wait. I am kinda confused. I thought that the GW can scry on people still, all the time, and if he already has three Gifteds, he still can scry, only he does not turn the innocents he scries into Gifteds, but if he scries upon a Wolf, he turns him back. So I don't see why Volo is suggesting what he is suggesting, as the GW is already doing this thing by which he can save people who already are wolves (and if he scries upon a person who becomes a wolf the very same night, he un-curses him, so in fact, it's the same as if he Protected him, technically). And I don't see why Roa is opposing it, as the GW already does this thing, as I just wrote. Or am I totally confused and misunderstood the rules, the posts, or everything?

[Volo]

Ok, if Legate is correct, then I was talking nonsense and everything was just as it should be.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Wait, wait. I am kinda confused. I thought that the GW can scry on people still, all the time, and if he already has three Gifteds, he still can scry, only he does not turn the innocents he scries into Gifteds, but if he scries upon a Wolf, he turns him back.

That is partially correct. We were discussing (or at least I was) how to handle scrying/cursing after both teams have filled their limits, should we choose to apply limits. If the GW continues to scry with out making gifteds, they act as another seer, but able to change wolves. Volo's suggestion was that instead of being yet another seer, the GW have the option to protect the gifted from cursing.

So I don't see why Volo is suggesting what he is suggesting, as the GW is already doing this thing by which he can save people who already are wolves (and if he scries upon a person who becomes a wolf the very same night, he un-curses him, so in fact, it's the same as if he Protected him, technically).

If the GW and the EW choose the same person to scry/curse on the same night, that person dies, so they really aren't protected. If the GW scries a wolf, then the wolf becomes an Innocent. If the EW curses a gifted, that person becomes an Innocent. Volo, as I was understanding it, was suggesting the GW be able to protect people who are already gifted from being cursed by the EW, and thus losing their gifted status.

And I don't see why Roa is opposing it, as the GW already does this thing, as I just wrote. Or am I totally confused and misunderstood the rules, the posts, or everything?

I think you misunderstand what we were talking about. As I said above, this isn't the scrying ability- it's something else entirely. If the GW could protect all the gifted from being cursed, it stops the EW from being able to remove gifteds in the same way the GW could remove wolves. I was saying that if you give such a power to the GW then it should also be given to the EW, but they should only be able to protect one of their team members a night.

However, either way, the protected person is a goner. If the EW chooses to curse someone, only to find out that s/he can't, then it'd be obvious that that person is gifted. If the GW tries to scry someone and can't, then it becomes obvious that that that person is a wolf. So really all it would do is maybe give either a gifted or a wolf one more day on that team.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I believe the 36 hour day was how we managed last time, and I don't recall a problem occuring.

I just checked the actual game thread back there. The Days and Nights were 24 hours.

Originally Posted by Roa

If the GW could protect all the gifted from being cursed, it stops the EW from being able to remove gifteds in the same way the GW could remove wolves. I was saying that if you give such a power to the GW then it should also be given to the EW, but they should only be able to protect one of their team members a night.

Originally Posted by Volo

My suggestin is that the Ordo is now protected from the other Wizard's powers for the next Night/the rest of the game as if it was the Wizard's own Minion.

This (the bolded parts together) sounds good with first read at least. But I would be very reluctant to give that "protection" to the rest of the game. It might be pretty strong weapon especially in GW's hands if she gets two or three gifteds already in the beginning...

[Volo]

I don't think they should be able to protect their own Minions, but it should come as a part of scrying/cursing Ordos if their Minion limit is already reached. The protection lasting one Night is probably too little, but the whole game too much. Maybe the next two or three Nights?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Volo

I don't think they should be able to protect their own Minions, but it should come as a part of scrying/cursing Ordos if their Minion limit is already reached. The protection lasting one Night is probably too little, but the whole game too much. Maybe the next two or three Nights?

I'd say bringing forwards rules like "this enchantment expires on Day three from the casting" just make the game too complicated (and who could trail on all those different expiry-dates!). So I'd say that one Night or then to the end. Which would leave me to one Night indeed.

But I do like the idea that the Wizards could not "protect" their minions from a scry but only others. That might also bring forwards a possibility that the GW protects a wolf on one Night... but also that she could try to foresee EW's actions and try to override them with her anticipation. When there is no one to scry (roster full) it would give a Wizard some nice things to think about trying to figure whom the other one would like to target and to bar that conversion.

Though the possibly academic question remains what if both Wizards have their rosters full? Maybe just one Night with one less problem to solve to both of them?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But I do like the idea that the Wizards could not "protect" their minions from a scry but only others. That might also bring forwards a possibility that the GW protects a wolf on one Night...

Surely not? Because under such circumstances the Wolf would be turned into an Innocent. Or should I shut up and wait till the rules are issued in some nice, summarized, easily-readable version? (which is an important and even necessary task which is in front of you, Nog )