What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Gwathagor]

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

Why do Bombadil and Ungoliante appear not to be created? Iluvatar existed before all else and thus brought all else into being.

[Gwathagor]

As I see it, Ungoliant and Bombadil were created incidentally, as manifestations of natural forces.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

As I see it, Ungoliant and Bombadil were created incidentally, as manifestations of natural forces.

And why do you see it that way? If it's just because you like the idea, fine. If not, could you please elaborate? Is there any evidence for the theory? Anything that might preclude the possibility that these two are creatures of a more substantiated nature?

[Gwathagor]

I may choose to elaborate later, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing the point with you. Chances are your disagreement with my theory is just a difference in terms.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Stemmed? You folks make her sound like a blossom from the Evil tree. "The darkness" was the empty space that "lies about Arda," like the darkness around our own Earth. There's absolutely no reason to make her into some peculiar manifestation of evil.

I'll say it how I like thanks, but do read what has been posted instead of rushing ahead to 'make your point'. Where did I say the Void or the darkness was 'evil'? Where do I say Ungoliant is 'evil'? In fact I'm saying quite the opposite, that Eru created all these things if we take him as Omnipotent, and if Eru is the creator god of this place then he can't be 'evil' as we mere mortals understand it.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Obviously you can. You just proposed (above) that we seriously consider the possibility that Iluvatar had other creative projects from which Ungoliante might have emigrated, despite the fact that Tolkien never indicated that he did, nor even entertained the possibility. In doing this you have removed Tolkien from the creative role, leaving only Iluvatar. You attribute to Iluvatar the power to create without Tolkien's guidance.

Ha! In being so reductive you miss the essential irony inherent in Tolkien's conceit of this all being translated from existing texts. Of course we know in our superior position as the reader that Tolkien made this all up - but at the same time, an essential element to what he made up is that it isn't made up. Therefore in one sense, as Legate suggests, Eru does have the power to create without Tolkien's influence. These are the fuzzy edges which make Tolkien's work so attractive.

So as not to risk being called pretentious for bringing a little critical theory into this (there's a new one, it's usually me thinking others are pretentious...), it is highly relevant as Tolkien does not tell us outright where Ungoliant stemmed from, and he was also the one who gave us the other parts of our investigation, the omnipotent Eru, the metaphors of Light and Unlight, the existence of the Void, the creator conceit. All of those can be brought to bear on the fun of working out where Ungoliant might come from and what she is.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, perhaps this can be viewed "structurally"? Some propositions:

1) "All Ainur who entered Ea" does not equal "The Valar + Maiar." This is nowhere stated, though often assumed; Maiar I feel confident refers to those lesser Ainur who entered the service of the Valar. This does not include, e.g., the Balrogs, who apparently had already fallen beforehand. Contrast Sauron, who was expressly a Maia of Aule's retinue, and who only (openly) joined Melkor later on.

2) "Ealar" does not necessarily equal "Ainur." Eru it would seem to me was capable of creating sentient spirits within Ea, as opposed to the Ainur who were created before it. E.g. the 'spirits' sent to dwell in the forests and become Ents; or the very anomalous status of Dragons and Eagles.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'll say it how I like thanks, but do read what has been posted instead of rushing ahead to 'make your point'. Where did I say the Void or the darkness was 'evil'? Where do I say Ungoliant is 'evil'? In fact I'm saying quite the opposite, that Eru created all these things if we take him as Omnipotent, and if Eru is the creator god of this place then he can't be 'evil' as we mere mortals understand it.

By positioning Ungoliante in opposition to Iluvatar you appeared to be implying that she was the Bad to his Good. If you intend merely to define her without judgment as Unlight (stripping away also the judgment of Iluvatar as Good) then my disagreement is lessened, but I agree with Thinlo and Legate and believe that you accord her more importance than she is due.

It's not a bad point for discussion, however, since it creates an interesting trinity in Iluvatar, Melkor, and Ungoliante: Iluvatar and Ungoliante at opposite ends as Light and Unlight, and Melkor all over the middle, not as Darkness (sorry Legate), but rather as Nihil: creative power inverted. Still, I think that defining Melkor in this way creates an overlap with Ungoliante's status as Unlight and the exaggeration of her importance begins to show more clearly. Melkor is the Enemy, not Ungoliante, and I think that describing Ungoliante as "unlight" without judging her evil is glib: Light and Life go hand-in-hand, as you point out; so, then, do Unlight and Death. If Melkor was evil, it is because of his extinguishing of light and life, and therefore Ungoliante too must be evil as this is her sole purpose.

As for the point of Iluvatar, as creator, being the source of Melkor's theme and its "evil" manifestations, I have posted my thoughts elsewhere: 1, 2, 3

Ha! In being so reductive you miss the essential irony inherent in Tolkien's conceit of this all being translated from existing texts. Of course we know in our superior position as the reader that Tolkien made this all up - but at the same time, an essential element to what he made up is that it isn't made up. Therefore in one sense, as Legate suggests, Eru does have the power to create without Tolkien's influence. These are the fuzzy edges which make Tolkien's work so attractive.

No, I do not miss that at all. It has nothing to do with the question I was answering. You asked:

Can we as modern readers with critical minds ever truly think that this has a separate existence to Tolkien?

And I pointed out that you had just said:

We still cannot rule out the chance that there are other existences than Arda, which may have been created by Eru.

Either we view Tolkien's world as a living thing, the histories of which Tolkien merely transmitted to us, leaving open all kinds of possibilities that he neglected to mention, such as the possibility that "there are other existences than Arda...created by Eru." Or we view it as a finite story, complete despite gaps in our knowledge because what we have is all that Tolkien wrote, in which case there is no possibility of "other existences than Arda..." because Tolkien never directly created them or even implied them.