Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Quempel]

Sauron is my vote from the list.

But, my real guess is Melkor. He made Sauron what he was. I have always equated Melkor as the Devil and Sauron as his head demon. Sauron after all was only fulfilling Melkor's wish.

[Almesiva Moonshadow]

The best liar is definitly Sauron,and here is why:

1.He managed to trick the elves into creating the Rings Of Power.
2.He convinced Ar-Pharazon to attack the Undying Lands of Aman.
3.He turned most of the Numenoreans into Morgoth-worshippers.
4.He tricked Gorlim into reavelling the hideout of Barahir and his outlaws.
5.He made Eonwe beleive he is good again,at the end of the First Age.

...If someone here from this list is the ultimate Prince Of Lies
its definitly gonna be Sauron...

[Galadriel55]

I would have said Sauron, but since the question was specifically about LOTR, I voted Wormtongue. Sauron's lying ended in the 2nd age; from the beginning of the 3rd, everyone knew he was downright evil. He was a mighty big liar in the 1st and 2nd ages, though, but not in LOTR.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would have said Sauron, but since the question was specifically about LOTR, I voted Wormtongue. Sauron's lying ended in the 2nd age; from the beginning of the 3rd, everyone knew he was downright evil. He was a mighty big liar in the 1st and 2nd ages, though, but not in LOTR.

In the West maybe ... but Sauron still deceived those in the East and the South. He had huge armies of Men, Easterlings, Corsairs and Southrons, fighting on his side. What did he promise them? What lies and deceits did he tell them? Presumably some mighty lord was told he would get to sit on the throne of Minas Tirith after Gondor was overthrown, but we all know even if that were true Sauron does not share power. Such a lord would be ruler in name only.

Even Sauron's closest servants are deceived ... listen to the Mouth of Sauron's gloating in the book - he thinks that he will rule over the West from Isengard, but we know he will be nothing but a puppet of Sauron.

Add to that the deceit of the Elves regarding the Rings, the corruption of the Numenoreans, the corruption of the Nine, and indeed the corruption of Isildur and others via the One Ring (Sauron's mightiest creation) and it's not too hard to vote for him. I don't think I need to add any of his treachery in The Silmarillion. Not only did Sauron corrupt many of the Numenoreans in Numenor itself, but also many of those back in Middle Earth, which lead to the Black Numenoreans (cause of so much trouble to Gondor in the Third Age). He also managed to end the line of Kings in Gondor by deceiving Earnur, the last King. In other words, he lied to him.

As for Saruman, once his treachery was exposed his effectiveness as a liar was severely diminished. What did he accomplish after that time?

1. Escape from Isengard, mostly because Treebeard felt sorry for him.

2. Spoiling the Shire. Not exactly one of the great military triumphs of the Age - and utterly unworthy of a Maiar. In the end he was defeated by a small group of brave hobbits and then humbled by the mercy of Frodo. He was a fairly petty liar by that point, more in Ted Sandyman's league than Sauron's.

Sauron's deceits spanned thousand of years, and brought down civilisations. Saruman managed about 160 years. No contest, in my view.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fascinating thread and surprised that I didn't see it back in the day.

Specifically to answer Prince of the Halfling's fine post:

Sauron could easily have swayed the Eastern and Southern men to fight for him without lying. Military glory, security from Mordor, crusade against the Western and Northern men; lies were not necessary.

Likewise the Mouth. Why assume that Sauron lied? Mouth could easily foresee that Sauron would need to delegate some fun jobs!

I have to agree that Sauron did all his best lying further back in the story, and that's why I'd choose someone else.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Sauron could easily have swayed the Eastern and Southern men to fight for him without lying. Military glory, security from Mordor, crusade against the Western and Northern men; lies were not necessary.

Just for the record, I must react to this - I would side with Prince of Halflings, who has brought up a very good point, I think. There is no indication that the men of the East and South would have been any different in this aspect from the Westerners. They were just more prone to being deceived by Sauron, being sort of further from the light, so to say. Intimidating connected with bribery, yes, as part of any political agreements of such kind, I am sure Sauron tried this on everybody everywhere. But lies were for certain a part of it as well. One big lie itself is if you manage to deceive people into believing that you (as Sauron) are capable of standing against the powers of the West, which, secretly or not, still work in the world in some way. But I am sure the audiences of foreign lords were overflowing with promises of glory, immortality and all this stuff, just like in the good ol' days when the Nazgul were corrupted, mostly from the very same Men. I think the mastery of Sauron's deception was in the fact that the people he was talking to surely knew inside of their hearts that he was lying to them and that the promises he gives are not what they seem, and that they don't lead to immortality (real or metaphorical) and glory, but to death and oblivion. But the people still listened to him and in the end joined him. Isn't that a mastery of deception non plus ultra?

Although I have to join the chorus of those saying that the moments when Sauron's "art" of lie really seems like an "art" are mostly the First/Second Era ones. The episode with Gorlim is definitely the top for me. Sauron (and even more the "proto-Sauron", like his earlier "versions" in the Lay of Leithian) seems to me to be the liar, although of course taking nothing from Morgoth, of whom he was technically a mere servant, so "cosmologically" it is pretty certain that Morgoth was "the" liar; but sort of from the literary perspective, it seems to me that with Sauron, it is somehow more emphasised (and also if the question is only about LotR, then Morgoth is anyway out of question).

[Galadriel55]

If we'd consider the 1st age as well, I'd agree with you on Morgoth. He created lie in the first place. He decieved men, elves, and even the Valar.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

One big lie itself is if you manage to deceive people into believing that you (as Sauron) are capable of standing against the powers of the West, which, secretly or not, still work in the world in some way. But I am sure the audiences of foreign lords were overflowing with promises of glory, immortality and all this stuff, just like in the good ol' days when the Nazgul were corrupted, mostly from the very same Men. I think the mastery of Sauron's deception was in the fact that the people he was talking to surely knew inside of their hearts that he was lying to them and that the promises he gives are not what they seem, and that they don't lead to immortality (real or metaphorical) and glory, but to death and oblivion. But the people still listened to him and in the end joined him. Isn't that a mastery of deception non plus ultra?

Well, Sauron was more than capable of standing up to the Western powers! Why wouldn't the eastern and southern men side with him? Military service and labour as the cost of keeping your family and home safe; far preferable, for most people, than incurring the wrath of the tyrant.

That's why I think these particular 'lies' were not so effective, because the end-result was the same with or without them: those armies were marching for Sauron regardless.