Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.

Gandalf did not expect Saruman to imprison him; furthermore, Boro's post most likely refers to Gandalf believing Saruman and his lies for over 160 years - together with the rest of the White Council.

What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.

Saruman managed to have the White Council do his bidding; he even managed to play Sauron for a while, after Sauron thought he had him in his hand.

-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.

Nor did Saruman expect Gandalf to do that.

-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.

I wouldn't downplay his works so easily; were it not for Gandalf the White, Rohan would have been most likely lost.

Originally Posted by Letter #156

Of course [Gandalf] remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman.

-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not.

Then again, what matters in this thread is who is the most effective liar. The Witch-king episode is a perfect example of that.

Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.

As said previously, Saruman didn't buy Sauron's lies - quite the contrary. On the other hand, Sauron and his servants were mislead by Saruman. Another example of who was the most effective liar.

-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.

Given their propensity towards Magic/Machine, a hobbit might have corrupted them . They wanted to believe, they were one of the easiest preys.

-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!

I don't think there is conclusive evidence that he deceived them in person - thus he might have a split merit at best in this situation.

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.

What do you mean?