Split Personality?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Gobtwiddle. He would have walked right over the hobbits too, except for events that occurred beyond anyone's (including Gandalf's) expectation. Just like during World War 2, there were a series of "hair's breadth" incidents that, had they gone the other way, the Free Peoples would not have had a chance: Bilbo finding the Ring; Gildor's party happening across the three hobbits just as a Ringwraith is about to discover the Ring; Glorfindel showing up just before Rivendell; Sam taking the Ring from Frodo at Cirith Ungol; Frodo having pity upon Gollum; etc.

Hogwash...which is what you want to do before applying lipstick.

Sauron, like Saruman and the Ents, did not anticipate this line of attack. He was worried about a new Ringlord, preferably of Rohan or Gondor make. He knew that there was some tark or man-dwarf-elf ("Man/Bear/Pig" ) running around spying on his land, but he did not think that this were that problematic or he would have had more agents/soldiers looking for the hobbits instead of going for Aragorn's band of ruffians - which would have been thwarted by the Black Gate regardless.

Did not the Witch-King, one of the fingers of the hand of Sauron, make the same mistake at Weathertop? "He will fade, then we will have him as there are no She-Elves around that can thwart us."

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, I'll give you that one, alatar, since I recollect now that Tolkien said much the same kind of thing in the story itself.

[Sauron the White]

from littlemanpoet

In any case, you are incorrect. The Alliance of the Free Peoples, though still relatively strong at the end of the Second Age, were on the verge of defeat, but Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.

Did not the free peoples army win the decisive battle seven years before? Did they not lay siege to the Barad-dur for the next seven years before dispatching Sauron? How is this on the verge of defeat? JRRT himself, writing in Of The Rings of Power in THE SILMARILLION says they had the victory and their siege was so powerful that if forced Sauron out from his fortress.

from Morwen

where in the LotR is it stated that the Ring was supposed to protect him or that it operates as a protective device? Where is this suggested?

Where is it stated or suggested that Sauron while wearing the Ring is invulnerable to attack making it impossible for Isildur to in fact cut it from hand?

And if neither of these things is stated or suggested then how is it a flaw if the Ring doesn't do something that it's never said that it could do?

This is the second post where you mention these questions and I do not know what I wrote to elicit this line of inquiry. I am not suggesting that the ring has the power to make anyone invulnerable. No way. I am not suggesting it was suppose to protect him from Isildur. No way - no how.

My point is very simple.

The entire LOTR revolves around the idea that the ring must be destroyed because if Sauron gets it he will then take over Middle-earth. Supposedly, the ring is the only thing standing in the way of his all out domination of all the peoples of the world.

But that is a serious flaw in the entire underpinnings of the novel and plot. You see , Sauron already had the ring and had it for a good long time. And while he did conquer some lands and the peoples upon it, he certainly was not able to do what everybody at the Council of Elrond fears will happen if he gets it again.

Premise: we have to destroy the ring or Sauron will get it and rule the world and kill or enslave us all.
Flaw: Sauron already had the ring for a long time and did not rule the world and kill or enslave everyone.

That is my point.

[Morwen]

My point is very simple.

The entire LOTR revolves around the idea that the ring must be destroyed because if Sauron gets it he will then take over Middle-earth. Supposedly, the ring is the only thing standing in the way of his all out domination of all the peoples of the world.

But that is a serious flaw in the entire underpinnings of the novel and plot. You see , Sauron already had the ring and had it for a good long time. And while he did conquer some lands and the peoples upon it, he certainly was not able to do what everybody at the Council of Elrond fears will happen if he gets it again.

Premise: we have to destroy the ring or Sauron will get it and rule the world and kill or enslave us all.
Flaw: Sauron already had the ring for a long time and did not rule the world and kill or enslave everyone.

That is my point.

At the Second Age the Free Peoples were capable of matching the military might of Sauron (with Ring) with military might of their own. They are NOT able to do this in the Third Age and in fact a Ringless Sauron was already a grave threat to them. To argue that "Sauron already had the ring for a long time and did not rule the world" ignores the fact that the ability of the Free Peoples to oppose him has changed dramatically.
Given that they cannot hope to overcome Sauron by mililtary means they have to look for other options to defeat him. And in discussing their options at the Council of Elrond it is made clear that sending the Ring to the Fire is not merely a matter of keeping it out of Sauron's hands. It is in fact considered their best hope of defeating him. The premise therefore isn't simply that "we have to destroy the ring or Sauron will get it and rule the world and kill or enslave us all". No, "we have to destroy the Ring because doing so will rid us of the problem of Sauron once and for all".

[Sauron the White]

Morwen... yes, yes, yes... I have heard that standard explaination before and it seems to be part of the doctrine among the faithful. But it just rings hollow with me. After all, the army of men did pretty well against Sarumans Uruks at Helms Deep. How could anyone know so without a doubt in advance that the free peoples had no chance? Battles and wars are not fought or won on paper.

One thing I have learned here in the past year is there is some type of general rules which apply to all debates here. It goes something like this.

JRRT never made a mistake. His books are perfect and without error. If you think you have found an error, it is you who are in error because the books are perfect. The standards which apply to JRRT and his books apply to nothing else and are special and are little understood by the great masses. And the films suck because they are not the books.

Do any of you ever concede anything? This gets really frustrating after a while.

[Finduilas]

Some of us are willing to concede to minor mistakes. But do you really expect any of us people who defend the books so much that you call us 'purists' to concede that the very foundation of the book and incredible story is faulty? That's really asking a lot.

[Morwen]

StW, I am not attempting to give you a "standard explaination" of any sort. I am presenting my opinion of the text, how I understand what Tolkien has written.

Helm's Deep was one battle. When the representatives of the Free Peoples meet in Rivendell their own assessment of their position is that they cannot hope overcome Sauron by force of arms. Hence the the plan to send the Ring to Fire. Indeed when Aragorn and co march to Black Gate , I don't recall anyone saying they hoped with an army of about 6000 to defeat Sauron. They are simply hoping to buy the Ringbearer time. This is what is presented in the text. If I am to find this reasoning flawed then it would have to be on the basis that there is evidence in the text to suggest that everyone, at the Council of Elrond and afterwards, is being unduly pessimistic; that despite their assertions they really were capable of somehow defeating the war machine of Sauron by military means and that capability is being ignored so everyone could embark on a quest to Mount Doom.

At this point I'm not sure what it is that I'm supposed to be conceding. Why is it that you find it difficult to concede that the position of the Free Peoples in the Third Age is markedly different from that in the Second? What is it about that assertion that seems hollow to you or doesn't make sense?

[Quempel]

Winning one battle does not mean there is enough military strength to win the war. And wars are won in the mind and on paper long before they are won in the battle field. No general is going to send troops out all willy-nilly without a plan, well not a winning general. So yes there was a victory at Helms Deep, but had it not been for the Army of the Dead, Rohan and Gondor would have fallen during the battle at Pelenor Fields, fact it the free living men could not over come the massive army without the aid of the Army of the Dead, and they were a one time shot.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Did not the free peoples army win the decisive battle seven years before? Did they not lay siege to the Barad-dur for the next seven years before dispatching Sauron? How is this on the verge of defeat? JRRT himself, writing in Of The Rings of Power in THE SILMARILLION says they had the victory and their siege was so powerful that if forced Sauron out from his fortress.

Oops. I guess you're right. That means that the Eldar allied with the Numenorean Faithful, were still strong enough at the end of the Second Age to defeat Sauron with the Ring, and Isildur threw away their chance. Wow. That really puts Isildur's foolishness in stark relief. No wonder the Valar sent the Istari, especially with the waning of the Eldar.

Originally Posted by STW

I have heard that standard explaination before and it seems to be part of the doctrine among the faithful. But it just rings hollow with me.

If you have evidence to prove Morwen's argument false, you'll have to do better than "rings hollow with me".

By the way, I've conceded a couple of points to you. You haven't conceded any, in spite of the clear explanations and examples I've given you, especially in regard to the objective, real distinction between secondary belief and willing suspension of disbelief. What it seems to come down to is that you're accusing the lot of us of "closed mindedness", which appears to be the pot calling the kettle black.