The Balrog vs The Witch King

Originally Posted by obloquy

I have no idea what you're talking about. They could have coexisted indefinitely just as they coexisted up to the Third Age. Are you imagining the Witch-King packing up his stuff in Morgul and moving into an empty room in Moria? In that case, they both could definitely be expected to get on each others' nerves. Durin's Bane had probably grown accustomed to leaving his underwear laying around and the toilet seat up. The latter of which would truly have ruffled feathers, since, as we all know, the Witch-King sits down to pee.

I have probably started more intellectual threads than any other poster at the Barrowdowns, & never before has anyone lowered themselves to this standard of posting. Mods, please get this post from obloguy removed asap.

[Gwathagor]

What's all this about the Witch King getting upgraded? I'm not familiar with this theory.

[Boromir88]

Let's not start making boastful claims where we have not done our research yet. Let's not get our feathers ruffled up over such a topic as the Balrog vs. The Witch-King. (Maybe if it was over Balrog wing's that would be a little more understandable ).

This is a 'what if scenario,' and also a 'someone-or-another vs different someone-or-another'. Which this means no offense, but threads such as this are not ones that too many people are going to take intellectually.

To pose a what if, since this is a 'what if'...well what if the Balrog leaves his dirty underwear lying all over the place? How is the Wiki going to feel about that? There's nothing to get flustered about.

I think the question you've posed is pretty clear and has already been answered. But if it hasn't...Durin's Bane proved to be even a mental strain upon Gandalf. Durin's Bane wasn't just physically strong, but he wore Gandalf out even before their big confrontation at the bridge. So, hands down, whether it's a bout, or some sort of psychological sparring, Durin's Bane would win. The Witch-King's primary weapon is fear (that is a 'psychological weapon'). Why would Durin's Bane have a need to fear the Witch-King? He didn't fear Gandalf? He didn't fear the dwarven kings he slew? If Durin's Bane didn't fear the Wiki, the Wiki was pretty much useless (just as he proved to be useless to the likes of Glorfindel and Gandalf...etc because they did not fear him).

[ninja91]

I dont care which side of the Gandalf v. the Witch King debate you are on. The Balrog would indeed be the more powerful over the Witch King. Remember, even Gandalf fled before the Balrog. And if they were not standing on that dinky bridge called Khazad-Dum, the Balrog would have easily defeated Gandalf the Grey.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I dont care which side of the Gandalf v. the Witch King debate you are on. The Balrog would indeed be the more powerful over the Witch King. Remember, even Gandalf fled before the Balrog. And if they were not standing on that dinky bridge called Khazad-Dum, the Balrog would have easily defeated Gandalf the Grey.

I disagree. You say he fled, but what he did was see the Fellowship safely to the exit, and then turn to confront the Balrog. When Gandalf describes his duel after their long fall, the Balrog actually ends up fleeing from him, and, needless to say, is eventually defeated despite Gandalf's claim of weariness before the battle.

It's possible that Gandalf believed fighting the Balrog with the Fellowship present would be exactly the kind of powerful display prohibited by the rules of the Istari. Surely they would have found a new reverence for him, and reverence was antithetical to the Istari's intended function.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

What's all this about the Witch King getting upgraded? I'm not familiar with this theory.

9. Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others [though note that he is nevertheless not excluded from the above explication that the Nazgul rely on fear rather than any true power. -obloquy]; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114.

This is taken by some to mean that Sauron pumped his own power into the Witch-King for Vol. III (did Sauron know there would only be three volumes?). It is not conclusive, however, and I believe it is clear that Tolkien is referring to narrative choices. First, the letter is in response to an adaptation of the book, and, strangely, this is the only mention of this enhancement anywhere in Tolkien's work. "Added demonic force" is not Tolkien vocabulary, and would only be used in this type of letter--that is, one that discusses narrative choices as opposed to Middle-earth history. Second, he doesn't say "There, given added demonic force by Sauron, he is put in command." This would have conveyed a very specific point, but it's not how Tolkien chose to word it. Instead, the Witch-King is put in command by Sauron, and as a result of that he is given an "added demonic force." It's a felt effect of that new station, not a literal transfusion of power.

Anyway, there's more of that argument over at Gandalf vs. the Witch-King.

[Boromir88]

I never interpretted the quote as obloquy has. I always took it at face value that 'added demonic force' mean the Witch-King received a little bit of a power boost. But, now that obloquy has explained it, he's absolutely right the wording is talking about the Witch-King's rise in stature (you could say importance) from The Fellowship of the Ring to The Return of the King.

The quote comes from Letter 210 where Tolkien responds (rather harshly) to Zimmerman's movie script of his books. In this particular instance Tolkien is referring to the scene on Weathertop where Zimmerman created a 'fight' between the Nazgul and Aragorn. Which Tolkien objected to, he said there was no fight on Weathertop and there should not be a fight on Weathertop.

The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

This is talking about the Witch-King's rise in 'status' (stature - a degree of development/achievement; an achieved level; status).

At Weathertop the Witch-King (being the 'leader of the Nazgul') is in all ways more powerful then them, but he is not at the level of status that he was placed at in Volume III. There, not only is the Witch-King the Lord of the Nazgul, but Sauron places him in command of his entire army. There is a rise in status the Witch-King takes from FOTR to ROTK...it is because of that his importance, his status, is increased. This quote where it supposedly says the Witch-King receives a power boost, is not referring to any 'boost' at all, but saying that the Witch-King's importance, his status, has increased from FOTR to ROTK.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

At Weathertop the Witch-King (being the 'leader of the Nazgul') is in all ways more powerful then them, but he is not at the level of status that he was placed at in Volume III. There, not only is the Witch-King the Lord of the Nazgul, but Sauron places him in command of his entire army. There is a rise in status the Witch-King takes from FOTR to ROTK...it is because of that his importance, his status, is increased. This quote where it supposedly says the Witch-King receives a power boost, is not referring to any 'boost' at all, but saying that the Witch-King's importance, his status, has increased from FOTR to ROTK.

I don't think that the Nazgul were increased in hierarchical status. They were already his mightiest and most trusted servants and their overall abilities put them above all of Sauron's other servants. While Sauron is gone, they are the chief enemies and it is also they who prepare the return of their master. All in all, with what we know, I would say it is safe to presume that, at least at the time of LotR, they were second to Sauron only.

[obloquy]

It's not that some other captain would have outranked the WK before RotK, it's that the WK's job in LotR, up until RotK, was to stalk the Ringbearer with the other Nazgul. In RotK, he's put in command of an army, which raises his status as the reader (or viewer) perceives it, and this was the whole point of Tolkien's letter. It has nothing to do with a promotion of rank, nor an increase of power. He was always Sauron's prime lieutenant, but on the Pelennor his job is no longer to hunt the Ring, it's to command an army in open war.