Lord of Gravity

[radagastly]

If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

These natural disasters are only disasters because people are around to witness (and suffer from) them.

From the Silmarillion:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said, "Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath thought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth!

And they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved, and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved, and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed, and Melkor spilled them, and naught might have peace or lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labor so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it.

A pretty violent, ongoing process, and yet:

For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

Well, that's surely a good point. However, there is one thing - it's important to remember that Arda was supposed to be made for the Children to abide in it. I think part of the solution lays in what you hinted at earlier, that the Valar did not originally think of the Elves and Men coming in the world.

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.

(emphasise mine)
In other words, for example Aulë could have thought that an erupting volcano could be a nice thing to behold, but did not think of the possibility that it may harm anyone. However...

...however, I am sure that's not satisfactory explanation. First, even my example above is probably a little bit "out", since we know that Melkor created the "unbearable heat" and so on, so generally, I daresay that probably even then Valar did not originally create anything "harmful" by itself, that it all came through Melkor. Then, many beautiful things (like the snow etc) came out of originally evil intention; but not vice versa.

And concerning my volcano example, it was just an example - probably a bad one, by the way, because

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires

So who knows if it's even a good example

Also, when Valar came down to Arda, they had still much, much work to do (and from that time comes what you, radagastly, mention in the second quote in your post above). The important thing is that they already knew that there were some Children coming - they knew it from the Vision, and they were technically making the whole World anew, just "by the lines" of the Music. Let's see:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.

So, at that time they already knew that there will be some Children, and they surely tried to minimalise the danger for them. We are told that even in connection to Melkor:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

And [Melkor] feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.

There are two things I would conclude from this part:

1. Even Melkor wanted to (or pretended to want to) control the bad things he created. So it's I think safe to assume that the more the other Valar would want to calm down any harmful things they made, now that they knew that the World was made for the Children to live in, and not just for itself. (If ever the other Valar made such things, as I hinted at earlier, and also see below).
2. "That came to pass through him" - this sentence can mean two things. Either, Melkor wanted to control just the heat&cold HE created and if any other Vala made anything harmful, he did not care but wanted to undo just what he did. This would mean not just hot&cold, because I am sure Melkor made more "harmful" things than just the heat and cold and that the heat and cold are here named just as examples representing all Melkor's dischord. So, it would mean "Melkor wanted to undo what he did, but if any other Vala did anything bad as well, he left it to him". After all, why not. However, there is second explanation possible. If we put the main point in the words "that came through him", we could understand the sentence as "He wanted to undo all the evil things, that all came from him." I hope it's understandable - I mean that it could mean that all the evil came from Melkor and from no one else. This idea is supported by the fact that in the Music, everything went fine, and apart from Melkor, there was no dischord, even when the third theme (the one CONTAINING the idea of Children) came.

Then there is one last thing, which supports the idea that the natural disasters are "evil" in nature. As I said just now, there was no dischord between the Valar, apart from the one Melkor created. Even in the beginning. And here is my point. Yavanna, as we know, created kelvar and olvar (animals and plants), and as alatar already said in his first post, Yavanna would surely not be happy with the uprooted trees after a wind storm. But there was nothing like Yavanna's sadness at first in the song, so we can conclude that Manwë did not create any sort fo wind that would tear trees from their places. And the most important, and with that I am going to finish, is the animals. You said, radagastly, "If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?" It's appropriate to say that if there were no Children, the natural disasters won't need to be classificated as "bad" because they won't harm anyone. But let's not forget that even before the Children, there were the living plants and also animals who can be afraid of things, and you'd hear them screaming if suddenly a volcano erupted near them. In this point of view, the original, unmarred Arda without Melkor would have been unharmful to its denizens, be they the Children or just plants and animals.

[alatar]

Thanks for posting, everyone.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective.

A man and his son sit on their porch one stormy night, taking advantage of the breeze. It's dark, as it's night, but also because a storm is coming. The air is thick, the clouds heavy, dark and brooding. The breeze slows, stops, then picks up and becomes a wind. Rain like a sheet drops from the sky and suddenly the porch is walled in water. Booming can be heard in the distance; the sky lightens here and there. As the storm gets closer, the booming gets louder and the lightning more apparent. The rain slows somewhat but the storm worsens. The son looks up at his dad, frightened by the intensity of the crashing, cracking and booming, but his father gives him a knowing nod, assuring him that it's okay, though the dad himself isn't too sure. The father looks up at his neighbors' house, sitting lonely on top of the hill across the valley...

Crack! BOOM!

The house up on top of the hill is no more. The fire now there is hard to see as the afterimage of the lightning bolt hitting the hilltop is still etched on both father's and son's eyes. When they recover from the shock, the son looks up at his dad, the question his face apparent.

***

How does dad reply? Would it be dependent on what is assumed to be the cause of the lightning? And so:

• Greek citizen, 435 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Mighty Zeus, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something negative about Zeus' hair."
• Roman citizen, 26 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Juppiter Optimus Maximus Soter, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Jupiter looked a lot like Zeus.'"
• Rohirrim peasant, Third Age, Peter Jackson's world. "Son, those people must have angered Saruman, who smote them with his thunderbolt, which is a newly acquired ability that he uses very infrequently like his purported fireball spell. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Curse you Saruman! May you fall upon a spikey wheel of your own making!'"
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, those people must have angered God, who removed his mantle of protection from them. Think that they didn't believe in the God that we know."
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, our God works in mysterious ways and we are to learn from this."
• Some religious or not person, present day. "Son, though I'm not sure exactly why lightning struck that house, but maybe it's because the house was higher up on the hill and lightning tends to favor such elevated things. Such things are infrequent, but can happen.
• Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, _______."

What does the person living in today's Arda say to his son? Was it Melkor, Melkor's legacy, part of Eru's plan, Manwe, etc?

And note that I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

• Greek citizen, 435 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Mighty Zeus, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something negative about Zeus' hair."
• Roman citizen, 26 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Juppiter Optimus Maximus Soter, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Jupiter looked a lot like Zeus.'"
• Rohirrim peasant, Third Age, Peter Jackson's world. "Son, those people must have angered Saruman, who smote them with his thunderbolt, which is a newly acquired ability that he uses very infrequently like his purported fireball spell. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Curse you Saruman! May you fall upon a spikey wheel of your own making!'"
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, those people must have angered God, who removed his mantle of protection from them. Think that they didn't believe in the God that we know."
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, our God works in mysterious ways and we are to learn from this."
• Some religious or not person, present day. "Son, though I'm not sure exactly why lightning struck that house, but maybe it's because the house was higher up on the hill and lightning tends to favor such elevated things. Such things are infrequent, but can happen.
• Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, _______."

What does the person living in today's Arda say to his son? Was it Melkor, Melkor's legacy, part of Eru's plan, Manwe, etc?

And note that I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs.

Originally Posted by a child (ahem) of the 7th Age

Would you stop calling me son, Dad? I'm your daughter, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Formendacil]

Perhaps this may be a tad too serious an answer for such a question, but I think we've seen the start of the correct answer in saying "it is Melkor's evil at work in the world".

To expand on that, if one reads the essays in HoME X Morgoth's Ring, I believe it is in the fourth section (the one that deals specifically with various Melkor Morgoth related topics), one will find the writings that gave the book its name.

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy at home with me, but it's back up at college, but I can recap:

Basically, in the same way that Sauron disseminated his power into the Ring, and used it to control things (specifically, the other Rings), Morgoth disseminated his power on a much broader scale: throughout all the physical matter of Arda. Tolkien adds that nothing (possibly excepting Aman) is free of the "taint" of Morgoth. Some parts of matter are more tainted than others; gold, for example, is a very strongly tainted element, hence why Sauron used it to make the Ring, as opposed to silver, but all matter has some Morgoth-element in it.

In the same way that the Sauron-element in the Ring gave it a "consciousness", so to speak, which we see manifested in the way it seeks to return to him, and betray its wearer, it is logical to assume that the Melkor-element in Arda is similarly still working towards his goal. And that goal, ultimately, we are also told in the same section of HoME X, is "the destruction and annihilation of Arda". Morgoth is unable to ever create or control all things, for he is not Eru, and as he becomes more evil, he becomes more blindly destructive.

In this light, I think it is very easy to see hurricanes, earthquakes, or the like as the manifestations of the Melkor-element in Arda blindly raging in destruction.

Sorry about no direct quotes, but my set of the HoME is in Edmonton, and I'm three hours away on a three week holiday at home.

[alatar]

Seemingly the consensus is that it's Melkor's legacy that causes the natural disasters. Though he was cast into the Void, his malevolence lingers to plague the residents, flora, fauna and works within Arda. All well and good. It's not what we would have wanted, but at least we know who's behind the disasters and so just have to tough it out as best we can.

Or is there something we can do?

Assume an earthquake swallows up an entire village as father and son watch from a safe vantage point. It's not their village, so they aren't as upset as if it were their home. Still, as they walk home, the father has to answer more questions from his inquisitive son.

• "Dad, why is it that whenever we're together we witness some calamity?"
  
• "Dad, I know that although the Dark Lord was defeated long ago, we still have to live with his residual evil, but why can't something be done by the Valar?"

Dad ponders this. Are Manwë, Aulë and their ilk busy dancing around in Aman and so weren't available to help the village, did they fear to intervene as the Valar are still smarting over their failure that was the elven intervention, or did the Valar intervene and though the village was swallowed whole by the ground, at least the man and his son got to walk away as that's about as much the gods could do, as there seems to be a limit to their ability to stave off disasters such as this? Dad, in this thoughts, summarizes then speaks to his son, "Son, either the Valar won't help, can't help or did help as much as they could. I don't know the answer; there's a whole in the ground where that village used to be, regardless."

Maybe that's why no one prays in Middle Earth.

[Lalwendë]

Real World - things just happen. We are just vulnerable apes in clothes no matter how we try and impose our intellect on things. We can prevent or predict some disasters but not others, nature is Bigger Than Us. It serves to put us in our place. Some answer it with religion, others with science, either way it's intellectualising and nature often shows us up for being too clever

Tolkien's World - here things are more simple in a way. Eru creates Morgoth, who goes out and marrs the creation of the world, but hey, in doing so, he also creates the chance for great works of beauty - both inadvertent creations of his evil such as beautiful ice floes and mighty thunderstorms, and creations made in response to his evil such as Gondolin, mighty swords and human qualities of bravery and honour. All of which ironically serve only to fly in the face of Morgoth and make Eru look that bit more cool and awesome.

The Book of Job shows us a similar God, one who causes smiting and destruction, and when Job questions him, he finds out it's Because He Can, Don't Question My Authority. I reckon if Alatar of the Barrow Downs asked the same question of Eru - why do you allow this? - he might get much the same answer, but with the footnote and pat on the head: "but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Real World - things just happen. We are just vulnerable apes in clothes no matter how we try and impose our intellect on things. We can prevent or predict some disasters but not others, nature is Bigger Than Us. It serves to put us in our place. Some answer it with religion, others with science, either way it's intellectualising and nature often shows us up for being too clever

I wouldn't say that "things just happen," even though I say that a lot. There is a cause; sometimes we don't know what that is, but it's not like, out of the blue sky an elven princess appears with a sword to your throat (that's caused by Peter Jackson). It's always something, but I know what you mean. There's no malevolent will behind a lightning strike; maybe standing atop the highest hill in the area during a lightning storm parading around with a tall iron pole had something to do with your being fried.

Tolkien's World - here things are more simple in a way. Eru creates Morgoth, who goes out and marrs the creation of the world, but hey, in doing so, he also creates the chance for great works of beauty - both inadvertent creations of his evil such as beautiful ice floes and mighty thunderstorms, and creations made in response to his evil such as Gondolin, mighty swords and human qualities of bravery and honour. All of which ironically serve only to fly in the face of Morgoth and make Eru look that bit more cool and awesome.

Great. We get to do our best to duck and dodge the remnants of Melkor just so Eru can appear cooler. Is he some geek teenager in some school? "Dudes, check this out! In my little terrarium here I got this cool white stuff falling from the clouds. My experiments call it 'snow.'" "Dude, what's with all of the bodies lying on the ground over there?" "Think that we call that 'overhead.'"

The Book of Job shows us a similar God, one who causes smiting and destruction, and when Job questions him, he finds out it's Because He Can, Don't Question My Authority. I reckon if Alatar of the Barrow Downs asked the same question of Eru - why do you allow this? - he might get much the same answer, but with the footnote and pat on the head: "but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".

Guess that puts Eru in the 'almost perfect' set, as perfect, seemingly, could not receive additional glory.

[Bêthberry]

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

"Offspring of indeterminate gender..."

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

Vanity, thy name is Narcissus, speaking of my boy...

Your answer seems to be the 'serenity' prayer. My point, besides never accepting things as they are, is that in Arda the Valar either cannot, will not or do not intervene, or if they do we can not discern their handiwork from the background; therefore the Valar are irrelevant save the bedtime story with occasional moral lesson. Raise a cup to the Westering Sun, but keep your sword sharp, boots dry and water bottle full, as that's all you can depend on.

And regarding the Book of Ecclesiastes, even I'm more positive than that.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

I can only agree with that!

Why do we never read anything of what happens to the Vanyar in Valinor? If it was so beautiful and perfect why didn't Tolkien write about this? Because what was happening in Middle-earth was infinitely more interesting. It was in Middle-earth that we could see pity and glory and joy, and it was there that we could see Eru's intentions best of all. Valinor is boring. Had Tolkien just written about Valinor it would have been like the kind of tedious pap you can read in the platitude columns in Reader's Digest or the People's Friend. I don't want to read about some simpering Elf Princess and her beautiful hair and her embroidery, I want to read about Frodo and Gollum and Boromir and Saruman!

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OK, it's Lalwendë's post actually...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Judging by the Ainulindale, wherein virtually everything the Valar built was *almost* undone by Melkor, the Arda we wound up with is nothing like the original intent of Manwe & Co. Reminds me a bit of the part of Big Bang Theory in which the proportions of matter and antimatter were nearly equivalent, and annihilated each other, and the very tiny excess of matter is what was left.

Anyway, as to natural disasters- one of the late essays (can't be bothered to look for it) points out that Mordor was the way it was, and so named 'Black Land', before Sauron ever set up shop there- it was a leftover from Melkor's primal Marring. So if volcanoes stem from that source, there's no reason to exclude earthquakes, and weather patterns that produce storms.

[littlemanpoet]

It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.

Why is this pesimism the logical conclusion? And would it take precedence over the required estel on behalf of Men? The Athrabeth puts great emphasis on the role of good Men in fulfilling Eru's design, so I would say the contrary would be true.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by radagastly

If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

These natural disasters are only disasters because people are around to witness (and suffer from) them.

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

But the Valar (excepting Morgoth) worked in concert with the theme of Eru. One only ever reads of them building and making that which is good.