Who were the Nazgul?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Nazgul could have acquired the services of the Balrog in Mordor. The Balrog then would have taken command as the chief servant of Sauron perhaps, although there is no evidence that the Balrog recognised Sauron as his master, only the now departed Morgoth.

Mansun, as far as I am aware, you are only quoting from the Grey Havens website, not from Tolkien, as one could wonder at your post. All of that is a matter of pure speculation.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

There's an article about this on Alcuin's site that's well worth a look. Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

There's an article about this on Alcuin's site that's well worth a look. Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor.

It is worth mentioning that Numenor began to fell long before the nazgul appeared, and signs of it were appearring hundreds of years before. A synopsys of problems would reveal that:
- Tar-Aldarion is already described as: proud, bent on his will; he was ever and in every course the more opposed as those about him urged it
- Tar Meneldur worried about his voyages
- Aldarion removes to a ship instead of Armenelos
- Tar-Meneldur looked coldly on the enterprises of his son, and cared not to hear the tale of his journeys, believing that he sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other lands to hold
- Aldarion estranged from his father
- Meneldur “ever opposed his son”; he curbs the felling of trees for building ships
- Aldarion refuses to remain in Numenor and seek wife
- he goes in pursuit of gold and silver, despite his father remark that these only serve for pride; "I will not wed until I must; and further", if he is pressed to;
- at the first departure of Palarran he is refused the blessing of the king and the bough of oiolaire
- the second departure of Palarran is despite the king’s ban, with bough from Erendis; closing of the Venturers Guildhouse and of the shipyards of Romenna
- third voyage: ban on departure and on all women to bring the bough of return; he meets hostile winds, which batter his ships; Vinyalonde overthrown by great seas; his ship is struck by lightning and dismasted
- Nuneth speaks of the heat in Aldarion’s mind: “Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Numenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion".
- Aldarion stayed in his house for a very brief time after the birth of his daughter, according to the Numenoreans' idea of the fitness of things.
and Erendis sought ever to mould her daughter Ancalime to her own mind, and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men; she “"has dismissed the Elven-birds (given by Elves at her wedding), and that was ill done. It bodes no good”
- the strife between Ancalime and Hallacar; Ancalilme ruling for more years than any after Elros
- Tar-Telperien's refusal to wed

Above these details, Tolkien makes the fall of Numenor as foremost representative of human failings. There are three stages of the "second fall", as he calls it: devotion to sea-voyages and exploring; Pride & Glory; Tar Calion. Concerning the second stage, he stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and 'factories' of lords seeking wealth, and the Numenoreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Numenoreans began the forging of arms and engines.

Thus, the fall of Numenor is explained by human faillings. While a nazgul working in Numenor is possible, it would have made the above explanation of events by Tolkien obsolete and his point about huma nature void.

One would also wonder if Sauron would risk sending one or more nazgul, with their rings, alone amid the numenoreans, knowing their gifts, knowing there still are many faithfuls there. At least using the ring to become invisible turns one invisible permanently - yet such a nazgul could not work in Numenor at all [also, I, for one, consider that a nazgul is permanently invisible, I know of no instance when a nazgul has a visible body]. Last but not least, there is no mention of nazgul being in Numenor.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Mansun, as far as I am aware, you are only quoting from the Grey Havens website, not from Tolkien, as one could wonder at your post. All of that is a matter of pure speculation.

I think Erik Tracy has explained Tolkein's work in a balanced way, & in a good context. It may well be speculation to some extent, but very promising nonetheless. Balrogs afterall were the servants of Morgoth, not Sauron; they did not have a great part of their original strength taken away from them like Sauron did either. In the LOTR Sauron did not even try to acquire the Balrog for aid. In terms of commanding will, why would a Balrog submit to Sauron given the circumstances of power each has? A strong case could be made that the Balrog could even rival Sauron in combat, irrespective of whether it lost.

[Raynor]

I think Erik Tracy has explained Tolkein's work in a balanced way, & in a good context.

Since Tolkien's writings, even his speculations, take precedence over any other person's ideas, it is therefore a good practice to state the source of your quotes, as most, if not all, the members of this forum would interpret an unsigned quote as belonging to Tolkien. I know I did until I looked it up.

they did not have a great part of their original strength taken away from them like Sauron did either.

But Melkor and Sauron lost a great deal of their power in evil deeds; since the the balrogs too were heavily involved in evil deeds, their power must have diminished in time too, esspecially if they engaged in procreation, as Tolkien speculated in Myths Transformed.

In terms of commanidng will, why would a Balrog submit to Sauron given the circumstances of power each has?

We don't know under which circumstances a balrog submits, or when this particular balrog would submit. For all intents and purposes, Sauron inherited Melkor's place; for all we know, balrogs respected their master's will in all instances - I would expect them to recognise Sauron's authority too. I am not aware of any case in which a former servant of Melkor challenged Sauron's 'rightful' place.

Originally Posted by Raynor

We don't know under which circumstances a balrog submits, or when this particular balrog would submit. For all intents and purposes, Sauron inherited Melkor's place; for all we know, balrogs respected their master's will in all instances - I would expect them to recognise Sauron's authority too. I am not aware of any case in which a former servant of Melkor challenged Sauron's 'rightful' place.

We do know that a Balrog will attack the enemies of Melkor, therefore the enemies of Sauron too. But there is no evidence that a Balrog will serve anyone else but Melkor. There is every reason to believe that a Balrog probably would not get involved with Sauron as his master, or as a challenger to Sauron for the inheritance of Melkor's position of command, hence it's long absence in the dark realms of Moria, unconcerned with what Sauron & the Nazgul do in Middle-Earth. But by the same token, did Sauron need the Balrog's help? With his current strength in arms, a Balrog would not be needed, although it would be very handy to inspire dreadful fear into any opponent & Sauron does like to play mind games involving this.

"The Dark Lord has Nine, but we have One, mightier than they - the White Rider. He has passed through flame and abyss, and they shall fear him." Aragorn may well be implying that Gandalf slew a great enemy that Mordor itself feared.

[Raynor]

There is every reason to believe that a Balrog probably would not get involved with Sauron as his master

You may be right; I will leave this part at this, since speculation would lead us nowhere.

Aragorn may well be implying that Gandalf slew a great enemy that Mordor itself feared.

Nothing in that quote shows a hostile intent from the balrog, so there is no need for Mordor to fear him. If Sauron thought he was a threat somehow, he would have ordered the implosion of Moria on his head.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Nothing in that quote shows a hostile intent from the balrog, so there is no need for Mordor to fear him. If Sauron thought he was a threat somehow, he would have ordered the implosion of Moria on his head.

Sauron may have thought of the Balrog as the equivalent of Shelob in Cirith Ungol, as a guardian of a domain that belonged to Mordor but nevertheless a co-existance was inadvertantly made, since it prevented the enemy from seizing it.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Sauron may have thought of the Balrog as the equivalent of Shelob in Cirith Ungol, as a guardian of a domain that belonged to Mordor but nevertheless a co-existance was inadvertantly made, since it prevented the enemy from seizing it.

The difference that I can see is that Shelob is the offspring of Ungoliant, who initially was allied with Melkor, but then went her own way. So Shelob seems to have a similar status. The Balrog were lieutenants of Melkor in the a same sense that Sauron was, even if their role was more exclusively for battle. OK, Melkor is gone, but I don't see any reason why the Balrog would be rivals or enemies. But by the same token, I can't see the Balrogs serving Sauron directly, given their more or less equivalent status and their different roles...