orcs and goblins- what's the difference???

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Morsul

... and also orcs(if we are to believe urks are just new versions of them as are goblins) also evolved into different categories. so either they are two different races or they have evolved....which is it?

There may be little room for evolution in terms of apes evolving into men, but I don't see why races should not become specifically adapted to particular living conditions over a few thousand generations. Maybe Morgoth even "created" them that way. Certainly, the Uruk-Hai did not evolve, but were specifically bred by Sauron.

Originally Posted by Morsul

... would you look at that goblins and orcs listed sepretely why would they do that if they're the same race hmmm....

I'm not sure what Formendacil is doing on the list( ) , but I believe that lmp has since removed Goblins as a separate category to take account of this very point. The list is, in any event, not definitive but represents lmp's opinion with input from those members participating in the debate. And there are some parts of it that remain rather hotly contested ...

[Thalion]

would you look at that goblins and orcs listed sepretely why would they do that if they're the same race hmmm....

Because the creator of that list is taking suggestions as to placement of persons/types and no one has gotten around to correcting him on that point yet...

[Formendacil]

Sweet!

I have my own place on LMP's Great List.

Albeit a lowish one...

However, to the subject at hand...

Morsul, I really hate to put it so bluntly, but using other Downers as an authority is absurd folly. If that were permissible, you could use yourself as an authority, and we would all have to agree with you- even though we don't- because you are a Barrow-Downer.

The only person who's words we can take as authoritative are those belonging to J.R.R. Tolkien. And, as far as I can see, there has been a lot of evidence presented on this thread that Tolkien used Goblin and Ork interchangeably (albeit the first dominated The Hobbit while the second dominated all other works). I have yet to see a smidgeon of evidence that Uruk-hai (meaning literally Ork-people) were in any was a crossbreeding of "Orks and goblins".

Mind you, since Orks and Goblins are one and the same, and Uruk refers, in colloquial ork-speech, to larger orks, it is entirely possible- though foolish to the point of tomfoolery, to say that Uruks are bred from Orks and Goblins. One could also say that Goblins are bred from Orks and Uruks, or that Orks are bred from Uruks and Goblins.

The three terms are interchangeable- save that Uruk, as applied in everyday Orkish, is used solely for the larger, more dominant members of the race. Snaga is the applicable term for the smaller ones.

[Firefoot]

The main point for goblins being different than Orcs seems to be size. However, I think this is being looked at rather wrongly. The mountain-dwelling orcs/goblins are almost certainly smaller. This is alluded to in several places - the Hobbit, the "mountain maggots" in the Uruk-Hai chapter of TTT, etc. This is not an absolute rule - Azog, for example, was quite a large Orc. However, the mountain orcs are generally smaller. This is not, however, because they are goblins, nor are they called goblins simply because they are smaller. They are just a smaller variety of orcs. Orcs are also goblins. It is just an unfortunate point that the smaller sort are the kind in the Hobbit and the Hobbit almost always uses the word goblin. These are two separate issues that seem to have merged incorrectly into one.

From Morsul's first Downer quote:

Saruman made the Uruk-Hai by cross-breeding Orcs and Goblin men. I'm not sure, but how can you get an entire breed of new orcs by using the same breeds to breed them?

This is not correct anyway. Orcs and Goblin men. Saruman bred Orcs and half-Orcs together. Even barring that, this wouldn't make sense based on your arguments: orcs bred with supposedly smaller goblins would not make larger Uruk-Hai.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Morsul, I really hate to put it so bluntly, but using other Downers as an authority is absurd folly. If that were permissible, you could use yourself as an authority, and we would all have to agree with you- even though we don't- because you are a Barrow-Downer.
ones.

no im not saying thats this person is an authoritative source.

what im saying is with this idea floating around so long one could see why my ideas got crosslinked and i mistook movie for book at that point

SaucePanMan: There may be little room for evolution in terms of apes evolving into men, but I don't see why races should not become specifically adapted to particular living conditions over a few thousand generations. Maybe Morgoth even "created" them that way. Certainly, the Uruk-Hai did not evolve, but were specifically bred by Sauron.

thats what I'm saying thank you someone understands my point you dont have to agree with it just understand what i mean

I have to admit i was nontoohappy to see my striderhobbit joke was taken seriously by most the fact that it was so misunderstood was alot more devastating than people disagreeing with it(after a forum is about debate is it not )