Anti-Dwarves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 02-28-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Well, unfortunately, some from the eastern houses did fight on Sauron's side during the Last Alliance.

Thanks - I thought that there was some mention of every race being split, but couldn't remember where/when. Could you point me to the source?

Still no elves to orcs, which is what I'd always would have liked to have seen.

mark12_30 · 02-28-2005, 11:47 AM

Mim comes to mind.

alatar · 02-28-2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Mim comes to mind.

Not sure what you mean. Wasn't Mim the last Petty Dwarf?

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-28-2005, 11:50 AM

Thinking about it, I'll put a vote in for dragons as the Dwarves external opposite.

Dragons are creatures of the air while Dwarves are being of the earth. Their common link is fire. I don't remember the specific battle but I do remember that at one point a dragon (or maybe many) was giving a hard time to an army of Men and Elves. Then to save the day a force of Dwarves, wearing masks to make them proof against the dragon's fire, showed up and drove the wyrm back.

Actually the Dwarves and Dragons have alot in common. Both are immune/resistant to fire, both value great craftsmanship, both make it a goal to collect great treasure hoards, and both are rather greedy.

For the record, Dwarves rock...

alatar · 02-28-2005, 12:00 PM

Great post Snorri .

Were the great worms Melkor's foil/bane for the Dwarves? Or, to put the egg first, were Dwarves Eru's counter for the coming of the dragons?

mark12_30 · 02-28-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Thinking about it, I'll put a vote in for dragons

Interesting points, Snorri!

Regarding Mim: he was shorter on virtues. Not that he was an orc; just that he wasn't a very good dwarf. Looking at your list (edit: in opening post), he's on the level of Ted Sandyman.

If you want the 'bad' side to be really eeeevil, then I'd say the opposite of hobbits is Gollum. Then Mim wouldn't ... quite... work.

alatar · 02-28-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Regarding Mim: he was shorter on virtues. Not that he was an orc; just that he wasn't a very good dwarf. Looking at your list, he's on the level of Ted Sandyman.

Agreed. Plus, to me Thorin Oakenshield was about the same as he was greedy, faithless, proud, overbearing, without honor, whiny - just what's a Hobbit to do to get a word of praise from a dwarf? Bilbo's writings don't paint a pretty picture of dwarves (sorry Snorri!).

Quote:

If you want the 'bad' side to be really eeeevil, then I'd say the opposite of hobbits is Gollum.

I put Gollum (and others) in the 'other' category. Gollum was a rogue - sure, he ate babies, but he also would not work for Sauron unless it suited his own ends.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-28-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. Plus, to me Thorin Oakenshield was about the same as he was greedy, faithless, proud, overbearing, without honor, whiny - just what's a Hobbit to do to get a word of praise from a dwarf? Bilbo's writings don't paint a pretty picture of dwarves (sorry Snorri!).

Bilbo shouldn't paint a nice picture of the Dwarves. The journey of the Hobbit is Bilbo's transformation from "nice, quiet hobbit" to adventurer. He shouldn't greatly appreciate those that took him from his comfortable life. At the beginning Bilbo is looking through a typical Shire Hobbit worldview and the Dwarves would definately get the dreaded title of "Disturbers of the Peace". However by the end of the Hobbit Bilbo is a true companion with the Dwarves. Plus from the beginning there are certainly Dwarves that Bilbo likes better than others in the party.

But remember if the Dwarves hadn't gone on their journey, Bilbo would never have found the Ring and the events of the LotR would never have happened. Therefore the Dwarves are the true saviours of Middle Earth.

Rumil · 02-28-2005, 05:42 PM

If I remember, the reference to Sauron-supporting Dwarves comes at the end of the Second Age, with the Last Alliance. It was said that all peoples save the elves were split, with some supporting Sauron, others the Alliance. Of Dwarves, few fought on either side (implying at least some DID fight for Sauron) but the House of Durin fought on the side of the Alliance.

I'd guess that although Sauron the arch-manipulator could not use the seven rings to reduce the dwarves to obediance he could surely have exploited their enhanced greed and pride to set one against the other and so capitalise on their disunity.

By the time of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in the Third Age, all Dwarven Houses were said to have sent reinforcements, so the disunity would seem likely to have been cured, perhaps at the point of an axe!

The other unfortunate incident was the whole Nauglamir thing, where the Dwarves of the First Age destroyed Doriath in another jewelry-related tiff. Even Gandalf appears non-committal on whose fault this one was though.

Kuruharan · 02-28-2005, 05:51 PM

It's painfully obvious that greedy git Thingol was trying to stiff the noble craftsdwarves of their justly earned fee...

EDIT: This relates to the idea that the natural adversaries of dwarves were other dwarves.

Quote:

A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.

Neurion · 02-28-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

I don't remember the specific battle but I do remember that at one point a dragon (or maybe many) was giving a hard time to an army of Men and Elves. Then to save the day a force of Dwarves, wearing masks to make them proof against the dragon's fire, showed up and drove the wyrm back.

That would be the Nirnaith Arnoediad, my gruff and diminuitive friend, a day the Eldar remember well.

The Dwarves of Belegost fought there, and their king Azaghal was responsible for wounding Glaurung, causing him to flee the field, as well as the remainder of the dragon host, who fled with their chief.

Boromir88 · 03-01-2005, 07:38 AM

I think we can see the dwarvish resistance in Gimli's account of "Sauron's offer." Sauron offered them land, wealth, and power, what dwarves supposedly want right? He was also using the element of fear (the black rider), but Dain said "ummm...no." Also, it is Gimli who first rejects the voice of Saruma in the...Voice of Saruman chapter.

It mentions in the appendices (the language section), very few dwarves ever served the Enemy, willingly, despite what the tales of men say. Men lusted for the dwarves wealth, and so made up lies about how they served Sauron. The reference points that there were a few dwarves who did serve Sauron, but I suspect not many.

alatar · 03-01-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It mentions in the appendices (the language section), very few dwarves ever served the Enemy, willingly, despite what the tales of men say. Men lusted for the dwarves wealth, and so made up lies about how they served Sauron. The reference points that there were a few dwarves who did serve Sauron, but I suspect not many.

I didn't think that there were a large dwarven group 'on the other side,' though I know that the other quote mentioned indicates that there were at least some dwarves on the bad side. Even these may have just been torqued off at a particular group on the 'good' side, and so were fighting for their own selfish ends.

So it would appear that we don't have any 'perverted' dwarves (like orcs) and have very few 'converted' dwarves (like Black Numenoreans) - if any. So was Melkor's/Sauron's counter Dragons?

02-28-2005, 11:47 AM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Mim comes to mind. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

02-28-2005, 05:42 PM	#9
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	If I remember, the reference to Sauron-supporting Dwarves comes at the end of the Second Age, with the Last Alliance. It was said that all peoples save the elves were split, with some supporting Sauron, others the Alliance. Of Dwarves, few fought on either side (implying at least some DID fight for Sauron) but the House of Durin fought on the side of the Alliance. I'd guess that although Sauron the arch-manipulator could not use the seven rings to reduce the dwarves to obediance he could surely have exploited their enhanced greed and pride to set one against the other and so capitalise on their disunity. By the time of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in the Third Age, all Dwarven Houses were said to have sent reinforcements, so the disunity would seem likely to have been cured, perhaps at the point of an axe! The other unfortunate incident was the whole Nauglamir thing, where the Dwarves of the First Age destroyed Doriath in another jewelry-related tiff. Even Gandalf appears non-committal on whose fault this one was though. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

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02-28-2005, 11:50 AM	#4
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Thinking about it, I'll put a vote in for dragons as the Dwarves external opposite. Dragons are creatures of the air while Dwarves are being of the earth. Their common link is fire. I don't remember the specific battle but I do remember that at one point a dragon (or maybe many) was giving a hard time to an army of Men and Elves. Then to save the day a force of Dwarves, wearing masks to make them proof against the dragon's fire, showed up and drove the wyrm back. Actually the Dwarves and Dragons have alot in common. Both are immune/resistant to fire, both value great craftsmanship, both make it a goal to collect great treasure hoards, and both are rather greedy. For the record, Dwarves rock...

02-28-2005, 12:00 PM	#5
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Great post Snorri . Were the great worms Melkor's foil/bane for the Dwarves? Or, to put the egg first, were Dwarves Eru's counter for the coming of the dragons?

03-01-2005, 07:38 AM	#12
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	I think we can see the dwarvish resistance in Gimli's account of "Sauron's offer." Sauron offered them land, wealth, and power, what dwarves supposedly want right? He was also using the element of fear (the black rider), but Dain said "ummm...no." Also, it is Gimli who first rejects the voice of Saruma in the...Voice of Saruman chapter. It mentions in the appendices (the language section), very few dwarves ever served the Enemy, willingly, despite what the tales of men say. Men lusted for the dwarves wealth, and so made up lies about how they served Sauron. The reference points that there were a few dwarves who did serve Sauron, but I suspect not many.