Strange Curses!

[Mister Underhill]

There's a very old and very interesting thread that examines this topic: "The curse of Isildur..." Old-timers will remember Saulotus in his surfer-dude persona in this one.

That discussion spawned a more generalized -- but still quite interesting -- discussion of "Magic in Middle-earth".

For those who like perusing scrolls of ancient and nearly-forgotten lore...

[Gelmir]

I hate it when that happens, you think you've started a good topic, and then someone has to ruins it by directing you to another, it's alright Underhill. Any hoo, lets see the old and dusty topic then.
Its pretty cool.

Hooray, I'm now a pile o' bones!

[Mister Underhill]

Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.

[Gelmir]

It's okay, sorry, if I sounded (I don't think you can hear the tone of my voice, mind) sarcastic. So, any way. If anyone can think of any strange curses that you don't know how it happened, just type in, and we could all debate it together, like some...

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Right...

Left...

Anyway, Here's one,
Melkor proclaimed the curse of Hurin, He had power to make such a curse, yes?
Now, the thing is, this curse was a major curse! It affected his children, (I.E Turin) and all who came into contact with them. If, (and this is a big IF) the line of Hurin had continued on after Turin, would the curse still have held?
This is something that had puzzled me for a while.
I came up with a solution; There is an awful lot of talk of the word 'Fate' wafting around the Downs, Devine intervention and such alike, which leads to all the deep philosophical stuff that Tolkien perhaps did not see coming when he rote the epic. I think that, although the fate was disastrous and tragic, perhaps it WAS divine intervention that stopped the Line of Hurin so that the curse would not continue and do more hurt to Arda and its peoples.

Any thoughts?

[Gelmir]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.

I've got my answer, thanks dude!

[Rimbaud]

In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.

[Gelmir]

how about enchantment?

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.

I'll have to second Rimbaud on that statement.

I also found an interesting post by the Barrow Wight on the curse of Isildur board (thanks for that link Mister Underhill):

Originally Posted by Barrow Wight

What sets the Men of the White Mountains apart from the other traitorous Men of Middle-Earth, especially those unfaithful ones of the First Age. Elves, seemingly closer to Eru than Men (or are they just closer to the Valar?), are never reported as having asked for such a curse against Man or Elf. And they were betrayed more often than not.

All facts point to Isildur having the power of God. This is the same Isildur later slain after falling into the temptation of evil (the Ring).

Is this a Numenorian trait?

[gorthaur_cruel]

Actually, I believe that the answer can be found in Unfinished Tales, in Narn i Hin Hurin. The following quote could explain this (emphasis mine).

(Mim) '...But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.'
Androg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mim, and muttered: 'The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. May he die with a dart in his throat!'

So I believe that Men can lay curses too.