Strange Curses!
 

When reading "The passing of the grey company" a thought came to me. How were the men of the mountains cursed? I think it was Isildur who cursed them, (correct me if I’m wrong), If so, how did he do that? He was a mortal, how could he have such powers to curse someone so?
To me he would need to be an ainur of some description to have powers like this. Did he have a wizard friend or something?
Can anyone help?
:confused:

This conused me as well

ALthough perhaps being as powerful as he was he, at least in the beginning, could bend the ring ever so slightly (because I believe the ring was weakened mainly out of confusion at having a new master) and used it to curse them

There's only this problem that Isildur cursed the men before he went to war against Sauron i.e. he didn't have the Ring then.
" And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk..."
If Isildur had lost the battle the curse wouldn't have worked (or that is how I understand it).

ALright and Ill now admit I thought it was after my mistake... but that does not explain how he did the curse and I think if a mortal can curse an entire army for an eternity then a red eye can manifest on top of a tower ;)

here's my second less magical answers

He filled the souls of the warriors with such guilt that they did not feel worthy of death and stayed to the land.... but why curse them only if you win.... It would make more sense to curse them if you lose (indeed curse them either way) but if you lost it may have been the lack of warriors you had and their army was the amount need to overpower the dark lord...

I don't think, Morsul, that it was the power of the Ring that Isildur used to curse the dead army. If it were, then likely only the person who wielded the Ring could lift the curse; as it was, the person who lifted the curse was Aragorn, Heir of Isildur, not Frodo, Ring-bearer.

In many mythologies, curses (and oaths) are very serious business, no matter who the curser is. The 'curse' is tied up with the concept of 'fate vs. free will' that runs as a primary theme throughout Tolkien's works (Morgoth's curse on the House of Hurin, the Oath of Feanor, etc). In a world where two opposing entities - fate and free will - are constantly at work, where prophecies and oaths are being made and curses cast, and where only the Creator can see all ends, a being such as Morgoth has no more 'right' or 'ability' to curse than a mortal man.

There's a very old and very interesting thread that examines this topic: "The curse of Isildur..." Old-timers will remember Saulotus in his surfer-dude persona in this one.

That discussion spawned a more generalized -- but still quite interesting -- discussion of "Magic in Middle-earth".

For those who like perusing scrolls of ancient and nearly-forgotten lore...

Annoyance
 

I hate it when that happens, you think you've started a good topic, and then someone has to ruins it by directing you to another, it's alright Underhill. Any hoo, lets see the old and dusty topic then.
Its pretty cool.

Hooray, I'm now a pile o' bones! :D

Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.

Any more strange curses?
 

It's okay, sorry, if I sounded (I don't think you can hear the tone of my voice, mind) sarcastic. So, any way. If anyone can think of any strange curses that you don't know how it happened, just type in, and we could all debate it together, like some... :rolleyes:

Yay!
 

I've got my answer, thanks dude!

Right...

Left...

Anyway, Here's one,
Melkor proclaimed the curse of Hurin, He had power to make such a curse, yes?
Now, the thing is, this curse was a major curse! It affected his children, (I.E Turin) and all who came into contact with them. If, (and this is a big IF) the line of Hurin had continued on after Turin, would the curse still have held?
This is something that had puzzled me for a while.
I came up with a solution; There is an awful lot of talk of the word 'Fate' wafting around the Downs, Devine intervention and such alike, which leads to all the deep philosophical stuff that Tolkien perhaps did not see coming when he rote the epic. I think that, although the fate was disastrous and tragic, perhaps it WAS divine intervention that stopped the Line of Hurin so that the curse would not continue and do more hurt to Arda and its peoples.

Any thoughts?
:o

In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.

Are you starting an argument?
 

how about enchantment?

I'll have to second Rimbaud on that statement.

I also found an interesting post by the Barrow Wight on the curse of Isildur board (thanks for that link Mister Underhill):

Is this a Numenorian trait?

Actually, I believe that the answer can be found in Unfinished Tales, in Narn i Hin Hurin. The following quote could explain this (emphasis mine).

So I believe that Men can lay curses too.

I'm going to ask a question, :D
 

Oh, Great(no sarcasm intended)! So could any other race lay a curse apart from man and elf, oh and miar and valar? Like hobbits, do they have ebough strength in them to do it?

Take into mind I haven't read all of Tolkeins Middle earth books :( :(

Is that a general statement then?

I wonder if these curses are only imminent in the Royal blood-lines, hence Isildur's curse. From my understanding kings of Numenor (like Aragorn in ROTK when he called upon Eowyn's soul) utilize the power of words in strong and profound ways -- whether in healing or felling...

In the thread Oaths & Oathbreaking there's also some nice discussion on the Curse of the Grey Company, albeit from another angle.

Personally, I think a curse is like an ultimate oath, or maybe an oath with a definate consequence. In ME, as well as most classical mythological stories and the Bible, if you break an oath some type of retribution will result. A curse, at least in Isildur's case, is what happens after an oath is broken. The point of Isildur's curse is to not give you're word lightly or dishonestly or Aragorn will come a few 1,000 years later and MAKE you fulfill your oath. That's my version of it anyways, :D .

in other words: what goes around comes around

Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru.

That IS a logical conclusion...