What's the Big Deal With the Undying Lands?

[Etharius]

I think we are striding off topic now.

Thanks for the info, i no longer have so much foginess of Valinor in front of me. Perhaps one day i will read the Simarillion.

Cheers fellas.

[Frodo Baggins]

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar. Not to mention that Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect. I can't exactly remember.

[Lalaith]

I'm not convinced that Valinor should be equated with Paradise in a Christian sense. First off, you don't go there if you're good or faithful, you go there if you're an elf. And you don't go there when you die - in fact, it is usually forbidden to mortals.
(Which is why I was unhappy about Gandalf's speech to Pippin in Minas Tirith in the RotK movie, basically describing Valinor as a posthumous destination.)

Numenor is inspired by Atlantis, I agree. But I think Valinor is more like Tir Na Nog, land of the Ever Young.

[Guinevere]

After Numenor had sunk it was called "Atalantë" which means in Quenia "The downfallen" Very cleverly done! One gets the idea that Tolkien's story is at the origin of the Atlantis legends..

And as for Aman beeing something like Avalon: I think you are right, Aethelwine, because the westernmost haven on Tol Erëssea is actually called "Avalonnë" !
And Frodo's departure has alway reminded me a bit of the departure of the injured king Arthur in a boat (with Morgan le Fay and 2 other women), supposedly to be healed in Avalon...

Tolkien did not locate the Undying Lands in the western ocean by accident. In many ancient cultures the setting sun was said to point the way to this special place. The ancient Greeks thought that "Elysium" the island of the Blessed lay in the West, past the edge of the ocean.
In Celtic legend there are also enchanted lands in the West . Two legendary Celtic races that influenced Tolkien's ideas of Elves ( the Tuatha de Danaan and the Shide) were said to heve left Ireland for "Tír na n'Og", an enchanted island to the West.

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar.

Except the sources are different. But you are right in the sense that Tolkien modelled the tale of Numenor largely on the legend of Atlantis (thereby incorporating the legend into his own "mythology"). There are numerous references to this in his Letters. In fact, he often refers to the island as Numenor-Atlantis.

Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect.

The Quenya for Numenor is Atalantë.

So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon?

Hmm. No, on reflection. It was 3am and I was working from a half-formed memory. I thought that the Avalon legend could be connected to the tale of Numenor via a shared connection with the Atlantis legend. However, although there is a tenuous link between Arthurian legend and Atlantis (some say that Merlin came from there), I don't think that there is really any significant parallel between Avalon and Atlantis (after all, one was an island in a lake and the other was a continent).

So the Avalon-Numenor connection was a bit of a red herring. Sorry folks.

Edit: The Avalon-Tol Eressea connection is a much better one. Thanks Guinevere (and you should know ).

[Guinevere]

Didn't you read my post, SaucepanMan ?

[Lalaith]

Guinevere, check out the times - I think we've all three of us had a case of simultaneous posting!

[Guinevere]

Oh, sorry! *blushes* I hadn't read your previous post either, because it wasn't there yet when I started writing.
(And I agree fully with you - I felt the same about Gandalf's speech to Pippin in the movie! Tolkien said explicitly: "The passage over Sea is not death" in letter 181)

[The Saucepan Man]

I think we've all three of us had a case of simultaneous posting!

Indeed. hence my edit.