What's the Big Deal With the Undying Lands?
 

I was wondering, so many people got to go to this piece of land. Elves, Ringbearers, Gods, Gimli :)

Whats the big deal? Why is it so special?

My Numenorean curiousity excels me.

Etharius, I believe Valinor ( as it was called by the elves ) was Tolkiens vision of Heaven. A beautiful land, where the Valar lived, an undying land of unmatched beauty where you can find peace for eternity. A place where you can rest after a hard long life.

Wouldn't you like a glimpse of Heaven?

Cheers mates!

Aethelwine.

Strange. This Valinor is reachable by sea and is an actual piece of land on the planet?

Etharius, your Numenorean curiosity would probably best be quenched with a reading of The Silmarillion. It's a mighty good read.

Not exactly. Though it is reachable (only to those permitted by the Valar) via the Great Sea, it is not actually a piece of land within the physical confines of the planet Ea. In that sense it does somewhat resemble a Judeo-Christian Heaven. A jolly good place to retire.

According to the Elf-centred mythology there was at first an actual Earthly Paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth.
(The Valar or "gods" are best described as angelic powers whose function was to exercise delegated authority in their spheres.)
The Valar persuaded a large part of the Elves to come and live with them in Valinor.(They were transported there on an island, Tol Eressea) Some of those Elves, however, went later back to Middle-earth.
Until the downfall of Numenor in the end of th 2nd age the world was envisaged as flat !
When the Numenoreans in their pride and folly broke the ban to sail West and tried to assault Valinor with a huge Armada (they thought they could thus gain immortality) the Valar appealed to Eru (God) and the old world was broken and changed. The earth became round, and the Immortal Lands (Valinor and Tol Eressea) were removed from the earth. But the immortal Elves who still lingered in Middle-earth in the 3rd age, could still take ship and find the "straight way" and come to the ancient West.
For the few mortals who by special grace went to Aman with the Elves, (Frodo, Bilbo, and later Gimli and eventually Sam) it didn't mean that they would become immortal though! They could only dwell there a limited time to receive peace and healing and would eventually die.

I hope this brief summary helps you to make things clearer, Etharius.
If you want to know more, you ought to read the Silmarillion, as the Lord of Angmar said.

Guinevere? How very fitting...
 

Ah yes, and to ad to what Guinevere said before me about finding the straight path:

I am sure you are familiar, in one way or the other, with the legend of King Arthur. Think about the magical world of Avalon, the land that is surrounded by mist. Only if you know where to find it, thus if you now the path, you can get there. I gather there’s something similar going on with Valinor, or Tol Eressea if you like.

This is speculation on my part, but it is not unlikely. For we know that Tolkien wanted to created a mythology for his country ( even the legend of King Arthur, though know as very English, is originally French ) and such a mythology as the Legend of King Arthur could very well have been a great source of inspiration for the Professor.

I hope this helps you a bit, Etharius.

Cheers mates!

Aethelwine.

Avalon ... Atlantis ... Numenor
 

I believe that it may be more appropriate to equate Avalon with Numenor, Aethelwine. Tolkien himself expressly made the link between Numenor and Atlantis, and I think that the Atlantis myth is itself connected with the tale of Avalon.

Saucepan, could you please explain more about what you talked about above? Because personally I am right now very confused about what you are saying :confused:

So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon?

I have to say that I don't know very much about King Arthur (but I do know a little Monty Python). But from what I know of Avalon, it has always seemed more like a Valinor than a Numenor.

Valinor has always been for me like the Elven retirement home (but of course much nicer than a regular retirement home, more like the Four Seasons of retirement homes). When elves get tired of Middle Earth it is the place where they go for eternal peace and rest. They can do what they would like to do, and be in a place which has been unchanged (unlike Middle Earth which is changing all the time). But then it is also like heaven because all Elves desire to go there :cool:

I think we are striding off topic now.

Thanks for the info, i no longer have so much foginess of Valinor in front of me. Perhaps one day i will read the Simarillion.

Cheers fellas.

Atlantis
 

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar. Not to mention that Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect. I can't exactly remember.

I'm not convinced that Valinor should be equated with Paradise in a Christian sense. First off, you don't go there if you're good or faithful, you go there if you're an elf. And you don't go there when you die - in fact, it is usually forbidden to mortals.
(Which is why I was unhappy about Gandalf's speech to Pippin in Minas Tirith in the RotK movie, basically describing Valinor as a posthumous destination.)

Numenor is inspired by Atlantis, I agree. But I think Valinor is more like Tir Na Nog, land of the Ever Young.

After Numenor had sunk it was called "Atalantë" which means in Quenia "The downfallen" Very cleverly done! One gets the idea that Tolkien's story is at the origin of the Atlantis legends.. ;)

And as for Aman beeing something like Avalon: I think you are right, Aethelwine, because the westernmost haven on Tol Erëssea is actually called "Avalonnë" !
And Frodo's departure has alway reminded me a bit of the departure of the injured king Arthur in a boat (with Morgan le Fay and 2 other women), supposedly to be healed in Avalon...

Tolkien did not locate the Undying Lands in the western ocean by accident. In many ancient cultures the setting sun was said to point the way to this special place. The ancient Greeks thought that "Elysium" the island of the Blessed lay in the West, past the edge of the ocean.
In Celtic legend there are also enchanted lands in the West . Two legendary Celtic races that influenced Tolkien's ideas of Elves ( the Tuatha de Danaan and the Shide) were said to heve left Ireland for "Tír na n'Og", an enchanted island to the West.

Sunken isles and red herrings
 

Except the sources are different. But you are right in the sense that Tolkien modelled the tale of Numenor largely on the legend of Atlantis (thereby incorporating the legend into his own "mythology"). There are numerous references to this in his Letters. In fact, he often refers to the island as Numenor-Atlantis.


The Quenya for Numenor is Atalantë.


Hmm. No, on reflection. It was 3am and I was working from a half-formed memory. I thought that the Avalon legend could be connected to the tale of Numenor via a shared connection with the Atlantis legend. However, although there is a tenuous link between Arthurian legend and Atlantis (some say that Merlin came from there), I don't think that there is really any significant parallel between Avalon and Atlantis (after all, one was an island in a lake and the other was a continent).

So the Avalon-Numenor connection was a bit of a red herring. Sorry folks. :rolleyes:

Edit: The Avalon-Tol Eressea connection is a much better one. Thanks Guinevere (and you should know ;) ).

Didn't you read my post, SaucepanMan ?

Guinevere, check out the times - I think we've all three of us had a case of simultaneous posting!

Oh, sorry! *blushes* :o I hadn't read your previous post either, because it wasn't there yet when I started writing.
(And I agree fully with you - I felt the same about Gandalf's speech to Pippin in the movie! Tolkien said explicitly: "The passage over Sea is not death" in letter 181)

<- Nice new icon
 

Indeed. hence my edit. :)

I believe that Valinor is the equivalent to Heaven.

Aman is like Heaven, but its not Heaven. It's only limited to immortals and a few mortals who are deemed worthy by the Valar. When Men die they journey to the Halls of Mandos, which isn't in Aman.

Atlantis and Numenor do have similar backgrounds. As for Avalon-Avallonë, pretty obvious.

Halls of Mandos
 

The Halls of Mandos are in Aman. Elves (and, according to their own beliefs, Dwarves) go there when they die. After a period of time (depending on their deeds), their spirits leave and they are, in effect, "re-born". Men go beyond the Circles of the World when they die. Their fate is not known.

I think that the "Undying lands " has paralells in greek mythology -Atlantis
in celtic mytholgy the many coloured land
and yes in Pardise as in Christian Muslim and Jewish beliefs.
Now was this intention on Tolkiens part ? One wonders and I am unsure we will ever know . But it does make for interesting speculation. ;)

It's definitely not the after-earth paradise of Christianity - it is an 'immortal' place so long as the world exists and a very peaceful, beautiful refuge, but only that. The 'paradise' of Christianity is corresponds more to the fate of Men - to move beyond the confines of the world to be with their creator. Heaven is explicitly not part of earth, past, present, or future; furthermore, it is the home of the creator - Aman is definitely not.