What's the Big Deal With the Undying Lands?

[The Saucepan Man]

I believe that it may be more appropriate to equate Avalon with Numenor, Aethelwine. Tolkien himself expressly made the link between Numenor and Atlantis, and I think that the Atlantis myth is itself connected with the tale of Avalon.

[Gorwingel]

Saucepan, could you please explain more about what you talked about above? Because personally I am right now very confused about what you are saying

So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon?

I have to say that I don't know very much about King Arthur (but I do know a little Monty Python). But from what I know of Avalon, it has always seemed more like a Valinor than a Numenor.

Valinor has always been for me like the Elven retirement home (but of course much nicer than a regular retirement home, more like the Four Seasons of retirement homes). When elves get tired of Middle Earth it is the place where they go for eternal peace and rest. They can do what they would like to do, and be in a place which has been unchanged (unlike Middle Earth which is changing all the time). But then it is also like heaven because all Elves desire to go there

[Etharius]

I think we are striding off topic now.

Thanks for the info, i no longer have so much foginess of Valinor in front of me. Perhaps one day i will read the Simarillion.

Cheers fellas.

[Frodo Baggins]

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar. Not to mention that Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect. I can't exactly remember.

[Lalaith]

I'm not convinced that Valinor should be equated with Paradise in a Christian sense. First off, you don't go there if you're good or faithful, you go there if you're an elf. And you don't go there when you die - in fact, it is usually forbidden to mortals.
(Which is why I was unhappy about Gandalf's speech to Pippin in Minas Tirith in the RotK movie, basically describing Valinor as a posthumous destination.)

Numenor is inspired by Atlantis, I agree. But I think Valinor is more like Tir Na Nog, land of the Ever Young.

[Guinevere]

After Numenor had sunk it was called "Atalantë" which means in Quenia "The downfallen" Very cleverly done! One gets the idea that Tolkien's story is at the origin of the Atlantis legends..

And as for Aman beeing something like Avalon: I think you are right, Aethelwine, because the westernmost haven on Tol Erëssea is actually called "Avalonnë" !
And Frodo's departure has alway reminded me a bit of the departure of the injured king Arthur in a boat (with Morgan le Fay and 2 other women), supposedly to be healed in Avalon...

Tolkien did not locate the Undying Lands in the western ocean by accident. In many ancient cultures the setting sun was said to point the way to this special place. The ancient Greeks thought that "Elysium" the island of the Blessed lay in the West, past the edge of the ocean.
In Celtic legend there are also enchanted lands in the West . Two legendary Celtic races that influenced Tolkien's ideas of Elves ( the Tuatha de Danaan and the Shide) were said to heve left Ireland for "Tír na n'Og", an enchanted island to the West.

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar.

Except the sources are different. But you are right in the sense that Tolkien modelled the tale of Numenor largely on the legend of Atlantis (thereby incorporating the legend into his own "mythology"). There are numerous references to this in his Letters. In fact, he often refers to the island as Numenor-Atlantis.

Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect.

The Quenya for Numenor is Atalantë.

So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon?

Hmm. No, on reflection. It was 3am and I was working from a half-formed memory. I thought that the Avalon legend could be connected to the tale of Numenor via a shared connection with the Atlantis legend. However, although there is a tenuous link between Arthurian legend and Atlantis (some say that Merlin came from there), I don't think that there is really any significant parallel between Avalon and Atlantis (after all, one was an island in a lake and the other was a continent).

So the Avalon-Numenor connection was a bit of a red herring. Sorry folks.

Edit: The Avalon-Tol Eressea connection is a much better one. Thanks Guinevere (and you should know ).

[Guinevere]

Didn't you read my post, SaucepanMan ?

[Lalaith]

Guinevere, check out the times - I think we've all three of us had a case of simultaneous posting!