What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Still, you cannot deny that there is something extremely powerful in the metaphorical contrast Tolkien sets up between Illuvatar/Light/Life and Ungoliant/Unlight/Death.

Well, I must say this Unlight never made as large impact on me as it did on you, not sure whether it was because I already thought Ungoliant as Ainu or it was the other way around that it did not make large impact on me and therefore I had no problems with thinking about Ungoliant as about Ainu. Maybe it has also something to do with the fact that Ilúvatar is not that much of Light/Life for me, but Valar are Light for me (thinking of Varda now especially) and Morgoth is Darkness, in which case Ungoliant is Unlight, simply Un-Varda (vaguely speaking), and Ilúvatar is Death (more than anyone else) and also Life. So we have Ilúvatar Life/Death, Varda Light, Morgoth Darkness, Ungoliant Unlight. The last three seem as if they should have an "odd one out" among them, but seemingly they don't. Hm, so this is it.

Originally Posted by Lal

One thing you can say about characters such as Tom and Ungoliant is that there is someone above Eru. And that's Tolkien.

Yes, but as you see, I touched this matter in my post above. We have two possible points of view: one, all these books are a story written by Tolkien, the world is created by him. Second, all these books are simply a recounting of a story, Tolkien is not the creator, but he recounts something that happened elsewhere. In that case, there is no Tolkien above Eru, but Eru is the One, the One that was before everything else was in that "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" about which Tolkien is giving us his report. You understand me? If we look from the "inside" point of view, we cannot say there was any Tolkien. The answer to what Ungoliant was from the first point of view is easy and creates no problems. The second one seems not as easy (though I still believe she was simply an Ainu ).

Originally Posted by Lal

I don't have quite such a problem with accepting that there is the possibility that there is another existence besides the one Eru creates. We are told Eru is The One and is Omnipotent, and that is correct, but it might mean that he is Omnipotent within this creation. It does not mean there cannot be other creations, maybe created by Eru. Maybe not.

Well yes, but in case all we read about is Eru's creation, then there can be nothing outside it. The first thing that ever "happened" in this universe is that there was Eru (I must say the more I think about this first sentence the more the contrast with the first verse of Genesis appears in front of me - such short sentences and both about something totally different). Okay, let's look at it word after word. Just the first sentence provides quite enough material:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

There was Eru - no problem. There was someone called Eru. It is in no way different from the tales where we are told "there was Bilbo Baggins" or "there was a king and he had three daughters". Nevertheless,
the One - this is a thing that we cannot avoid. He was the One. There were no others, two, three, or seven, or whatever. Now Lal said that he might be One just in the terms of his creation and that there may be something outside his creation. I would call that quite a constrained move, but even then, we never hear anything about other creations or things that would interfere. That much is clear,
who in Arda is called Ilúvatar - he is called Ilúvatar, "all-father", in Arda - now this is an argumant that could go with what Lal said (that he is seen as all-father only in Arda, but maybe not elsewhere), but actually, this destroys the possibility to interpretate the words before "the One" as not having an universal legitimacy. Because if we take the words "who in Arda is called Ilúvatar" the way that he is all-father just from the view of the inhabitants of Arda, the words "the One" create a contrast, and we have: yes, there is someone who is called all-father in Arda, that is, he created all that is in Arda and from the point of view of its inhabitants he created everything. And what about outside Arda? Well outside Arda, he is THE ONE - that is, outside Arda, there is nothing besides him, and not just from the view of the Arda-inhabitants. The words "the One" do not have any "who in Arda is called the One" or "who in the Halls of Ilúvatar is called the One" with them. No, it is plain: he is the One, point.
and he made first the Ainur - now we hear what he made first, one can now start to think whether "first" is to be interpretated here as marking the object (he first made Ainur and then he made something else), or as emphasising the time (that there was nothing before he made Ainur). Whatever the case, this part (and then the holy ones part and what follows) does not concern our current topic that much, I believe, so let's move on;
and they were with him before aught else was made - definitely nothing else was made before. That actually means several things for us, like the fact that Ungoliant (or Tom), if they are not Ainur and if they are not outside Eru's creation, could not have been there earlier than the Ainur. Second, it is interesting whether (in case we allowed the possibility that there are other creations than Eru's) this could be interpretated the way that really nothing else, even things from other creations, were made before Eru made the Ainur. However, even this discovery would not have any relevance regarding the question whether there were such things outside Eru's creation. Nevertheless, mainly from the words "the One" and what follows and taking the context into account, I believe it is not relevant to assume that there were other things outside Eru's creation in the world from the inner point of view.