The Ring: If Galadriel or Gandalf had taken it?

[TheLostPilgrim]

I have a question about Galadriel. I have not read the books in a while, but in the films, when Frodo offers her the Ring, she states that her heart has indeed long desired it. Is this so in the books? And if she did take the Ring, would she have become more powerful than Sauron? Would she have become as terrible, and evil as she proclaims she would? One wonders what a Ring of Power could do in good hands--Galadriel's mind seemed to be very powerful, not easily corruptible, her will and resolve very very strong--Sauron desired greatly to see into it and yet could not so long as he didn't have the One Ring. So, what effect would it have had on her given her strong will?

Similarly, what if Gandalf were to bear the Ring? Would he have become as strong as Sauron? Do you think he had a strong enough will to resist it? Or would he have fallen to evil?

And finally I've wondered how the Three Rings didn't effect their owners. The Seven given to the Dwarves made them greedier, hungrier for gold and mountain halls if I recall correctly; The Nine turned the Men who owned them into inhuman slaves of Sauron; But the Three do not seem to have much effected their owners--Why is this?

[narfforc]

It could be noted here that Finrod, the brother of Galadriel strove against Sauron in wizardry during the battle to aid Beren. Galadriel wearing The One Ring would probably just defeat him.

The Three were not affected because Sauron never touched them and the bearers took them off as soon as Sauron placed The One on his finger.

Gandalf would have been as strong as Sauron and yes he would have fallen, as would all who wore It.

[Lalwendë]

It shows just how strong willed Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond were, that they were all in contact with Bilbo and Frodo and could have taken the One at any point but chose not to. The strength of someone who wore both one of the three Elven rings and the One ring would be incredible.

Yes, they would have fallen to evil. I think you can see what would have happened by looking at Saruman who possessed no ring of power but had a desire for one to the extent that he tried to create his own.

I don't think that the three Elven rings had no ill-effects upon their bearers. The sense of responsibility and pressure on each of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond must have been immense and at the end of the Third Age they retire gratefully into the West, taking the three rings with them. Remember Gandalf had borne Narya for only part of the Third Age, and so was likely to have been less worn down by this responsibility, and Galadriel was the only bearer to have been the one originally gifted with it. Galadriel was also given Nenya as a gift from Celebrimbor who loved her.

[Alfirin]

Galadriel would indeed have succumbed to the One Ring eventually, had she claimed it. There is only one major difference had Gladriel taken it as opposed to any of the other Characters (maybe Gandalf as well). For most of the other characters (Aragorn, Boromir, etc.) it seems likey that the Mordor they created and the Sauron they became would be more or less the same as the Sauron that was already in existance. A new entity would sit on the throne of Barad-Dur, but otherwise little would change. In Galadriel, however, at leastassuming that what she said would happen was accurate (and I tend to assume thay Galadriel knows herself pretty well). you woud sort of get Mordor as approached from the other side . Instead of brooding, smothering darkness, you'd get blazing, searing light, diametrically opposite, but just as deadly.

[narfforc]

One of the main reasons The Seven didn't have much affect was that Aule had made them (The Dwarves) indomitable to the will of others, therefore negating any purpose Sauron had in trying to enslave them through his control of The One Ring, their greed for hoarding gold indeed brought it's own evils upon the dwarves, Smaug was only one of them.

I am one of the few who think that Saruman did have a Ring, one he created with his knowledge of ring-making. One must remember a few things, he was like Sauron in the beginning a Maia of Aule, he had studied the Lore of Ring Making, but most of all we have the words of Gandalf at The Council of Elrond, ' But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger'. Why mention this ring, what purpose is there in it?...later Saruman gets angry and let's slip '....For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours' Note the use of capital letters to emphasize the word ring and many colours, the latter is explaned but not the former. It may well be that this ring was even less powerful than the 'lesser rings, only essay's in the craft', yet it may well be the source of the power which Saruman used to gain sway over people, his voice, and Gandalf's worry over Saruman's escape and the one tooth left.

[Lalwendë]

I agree that Saruman had definitely tried his hand at ring making. One of the (many) things that intrigues me about him is what powers this ring gave him. And like I've said many times before, I believe he was trying to forge some kind of 'third way' which ultimately failed (and maybe was even doomed to fail).

I often wonder if his impulse to get hold of the Hobbits and hence the One ring was of his own making or due to the influence of Sauron via his use of the palantir. And likewise, how much his crafting of his ring was influenced by Sauron.

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron:

'He drew himself up then and began to declaim, as if he were making a speech long rehearsed. "The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.

'"And listen, Gandalf, my old friend and helper!" he said, coming near and speaking now in a softer voice. "I said we, for we it may be, if you will join with me. A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron:

This has been a bit of an "off the wall" theory I've been thinking on for a while, so feel free to shoot it down hard, because it may be a reach. It just comes because I think Saruman is one of the most interesting villains written in literature.

I've been thinking based on what we know of Saruman's background (coming from Aule), who he is a person (jealous of Gandalf's ring, some parts politician, some part scientist, and some part mime) he wants the One Ring, not to wield is as say Galadriel or Gandalf would. Rather, he wants the Ring to understand its making, and uncover the power of its making in order to make a ring of his own.

Taking that next step to narfforc's post. Being a maia of Aule it's not surpise in UT - The Istari Saruman is said to have "great skill he had in works of hand." I also think there is a pride and love that the craftsman has for objects of their own making. So, Saruman not only had great skill at crafting, but I don't think it would be a stretch to say he would want something crafted by his own hand. There would be an added sense of pride in the skill, beauty, a/or power in one's own crafting, like with Feanor's silmarils.

Ok, now moving to all the parts of Saruman's personality. We know when he discovered Gandalf had an elven ring of power he was jealous:

And the Grey Messenger took the the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this give, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest~The Istari

This may be looking like slow baby steps, but it's basically my exact train of thought and establishing Saruman wants a ring of power. And he winds up wanting the One Ring. But here's where if you ask "why?" I think you can come up with some different possibilities. For a long time I went on assuming the answer to "why" would be the same as Galadriel or Gandalf. Saruman wants the Ring to control it, wield it, and style himself as the new Lord of the Rings. Essentially, he wants to replace Sauron and thinks possessing and mastering the One Ring is his path to doing it. But this is where Saruman gets so complicated and fascinating as a character, because he's not Sauron and he's not Gandalf.

Taking the other aspects of Saruman's personality. He's very much a scientist, as we see with breaking the white light:

"In which case it is no longer white...and he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom"~The Council of Elrond

In Gandalf's opinion, what Saruman has done is treacherous. Whether someone agrees with Gandalf or not, isn't really the purpose, but it's reveals a part of Saruman's character. He is one who will take something, and break it, to try to find out what it is, and I think in trying to understand it's making, Saruman believes he can gain power over it. It's much different from seeking the Ring to wield it. With Saruman, it becomes seeking the One Ring to study it, unlock any hidden keys to its making and therefor, possibly trying to craft a ring that would be his own making that would be able to challenge Sauron's ring.

Here's where it might be argued that surely Saruman, as well studied into Ring-lore as he was, would understand that such an endeavor is beyond his powers. I disagree, because we have to consider the rest of Saruman's personality. He reaches a point where he is so prideful he's deluded and bewildered himself. He's blinded by his pride, he can't see or comprehend his failure anymore. When Isildur tried to bend the Ring to his will, in the UT, Isildur remarks his "pride has fallen." He realized the limitations of his own power, couldn't subjugate the Ring to his will, and thus decides it needs to go to the "Keepers of the three."

Saruman, being innately more powerful than Isildur, may very well be able to succeed where Isildur couldn't. However, even if Saruman were to fail, as Isildur did, I don't think Saruman would even comprehend that he failed. Isildur's pride fell. Saruman's pride blinded him to the point where he was fooling himself and the capability of his powers. Saruman is incapable of understanding the limitations of his powers. And therefor I believe if he wanted the One Ring to "break it" (as he did with the white light) and uncover crafting his own Ring of Power, he wouldn't understand the fruitlessness of his pursuit.

Saruman the mime. Basically, Saruman copies everything from Sauron, but it just winds up being a cheap knock off. The best way I can explain it is, if Sauron drank whole milk Saruman would drink skim. He wants to emulate Sauron in every way, but it winds up being a lesser imitation. The tower, the new breed of Uruks, the white hand, the "Ring-maker" title (which is ironically a title Gandalf gives to Sauron earlier in the books), all of Saruman's efforts to imitate Sauron. So, my question is, how can Saruman be a mime if his desire is to wield Sauron's Ring? Saruman would need a Ring of Power, crafted by his hands, and in that way can he only be the perfect copy of Sauron.

Finally, going back now to one of Lal's points:

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron

Saruman's mind is extremely muddled. I think of it as there is what Saruman says and how he wants others to perceive him, and then there is what Saruman actually does. And they are different. Saruman, essentially says one thing, but in the end he is of the same mind as Sauron.

Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him.~HOME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron was able to understand Saruman far better than he could understand Gandalf, because Saruman was so similar. And in the end, Saruman fell in a way different from Denethor's fall:

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable~The Palantiri

"desire his victory, or no longer opposed it"...there's some interesting and kind of unhelpful wording. However, this is where Saruman the politician comes in. Because, as Lal says, Saruman's speeches don't really sound like one who is wholly under the influence of Sauron, yet Saruman becomes such a close imitation, Sauron can easily figure him out.

I think what it is, Saruman has tried to put on so many different faces and charades that he's confused not only everyone else, but himself. He may truly believe what he says and the end results are just completely different. Or he is the politician who has tried to play to so many different parties (Gandalf, Sauron, the Elves, Rohan, Gondor..etc) that he's essentially beent tangled in his own web of deceit. He's befudddled himself to the point where he himself doesn't understand what he's saying, nor who he is as a person. This is a point Tom Shippey observes with all of Saruman's abstract speeches on "the Power" and "the ultimate purpose," and "breaking the white light."

Saruman indeed talks exactly like too many politicians. It is impossible towork out exactly what he means because of the abstract nature of his speech; in the end it is doubtful whether he understands himself.~Author of the Century; Mapping out a Plot

He may indeed believe what he's spouting, but he's speaking so abstractly it confuses the audience and probably confuses himself. And while he certainly doesn't sound like one who is of like mind to Sauron, in the end that's basically who he becomes.